Topic: combat action: knockdown

[choc]

there is something, that confuses me.

in rev.corebook is written it uses  qu + st + ag against 2x ag.
in ML is written it uses st + ag OR an appropriate skill against 2x ag

what does this mean? do i use MA-sweeps OB against 2x ag?
isn't that overpowered? (it sounds easier to knockdown a fighter in plate than to knock foe to the ground via sweeps/unbalancing crit table.

1. which combat styles are an appropriate skill?
2. if no skill is available, use ag+st+qu or ag+st?

please, i need some statements or player testing results. i have massive doubts with the descriptions of knockdown.

(excuse my horrible english - it's early in the morning)

[Thom @ ICE]

HARP (revised)
d100 + ST + AG + QU - if greater than 99
    Obtain RR target by looking up result on the Maneuver table - RR column
    Foe must exceed RR Target with Maneuver Roll (applying AGx2 bonus)
If initial roll is less than 99 - attempt fails.

Martial Law
d100 + ST + AG + Size Modifier - if greater than 99
    Obtain RR target by looking up result on the Maneuver table - RR column
    Foe must exceed RR Target with Maneuver Roll (applying AGx2 bonus)
If initial roll is less than 99 - attempt fails.

There are multiple scenarios where Martial Law or College of Magics present different rules for the same action or maneuver.   You simply decide which set of rules will be used in your campaign.  The HARP rules are the "official", the Martial Law rules are an "alternative" and of course your own House Rules can override either of these.

Main differences between these two....
HARP grants QU bonus for the attacker but does not consider Size.
Martial Law grants Size Mod but does not consider quickness.
I did not find any reference to the "Or and appropriate skill" comment.

In regards to playtesting - we have not used this action much at all.  However, keep in mind that by doing this the attacker can not parry and in order to succeed (using HARP) for Phredric (from ML) at 10th level - he needs to roll a 72 or above - and then if he does the chances are pretty good whoever he is "knocking down" will go down.  Letting your foe attack you freely for one round so you can get a +40 the next is a strategy question.

[choc]

*snap*
I did not find any reference to the "Or and appropriate skill" comment.

Note: Being trained to knock a target to the ground
can make a big difference, especially when dealing with
targets that are a different size. Martial Arts sweeps,
brawling, and certain combat styles provide training in
using size to knock an opponent to the ground. In such
cases where there is an appropriate skill, use that skill
instead of the stat bonuses.

thx tjones.

Ok, i've to choose between ML or HARP (revised) - we mostly use ML and H&S - but my second question was which are these certain combat styles.

On the other hand, ML supports knockdown for characters wearing (heavy) armor.

We tried maneuver this sometimes, especially for a group against one opponent. (a small group w/o armor in confrontation with one knight in thick plate)


Maybe so. has little more experience with this maneuver.

[Thom @ ICE]

Thanks for pointing it out. I missed that paragraph repeatedly.
MA Sweeps and Brawling are both pretty self-explanatory.
For Combat styles that might be applicable here are the ones I would consider from HARP and ML:

Mounted Combat
Weapon & Shield

There may be others introduced in Harpers Bazaar issues, the Cyradon product or The Guild Companion articles. 

For multiple people attacking at once I would also give additional bonuses for facing. One individual is assumed frontal. Two are both assumed flanking. Three are 1 frontal and 2 flanking. Four are 1 frontal, 2 flanking, 1 rear....   

If you look at the July issue of The Guild Companion, I wrote an article about creating Training Packages - specifically for Thieves World.   At the end there are some talents that I created including one which handles well-coordinated joint attacks.   If used in your game you could also apply that in this situation.