Topic: question about superior quality items

[Mhairtrym]

Once again I have a question, this time from RMC.

In the cratures and treasure book, on page 150.  There is a table 08-01, listing bonus based on quality of item.  How does this stack with superior material?  If for example I have a Low steel enchanted dagger +10, that was of Quality manufacture would the final be +20?


Another question in RMC I did not see exact bonuses for organic substances, I found prices in CC.  But what would the bonus be on a Dir wood quarterstaff that costs 50gp?  How about Hoen wood bow?

I can find info for most of these material in say SW atlas's or older RM2 books, but always the chance it would be different in RMC.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

In the cratures and treasure book, on page 150.  There is a table 08-01, listing bonus based on quality of item.  How does this stack with superior material?  If for example I have a Low steel enchanted dagger +10, that was of Quality manufacture would the final be +20?

Non-magical bonuses stack, just as magical bonuses stack, but the two do not stack together.

Another question in RMC I did not see exact bonuses for organic substances, I found prices in CC.  But what would the bonus be on a Dir wood quarterstaff that costs 50gp?  How about Hoen wood bow?

I can find info for most of these material in say SW atlas's or older RM2 books, but always the chance it would be different in RMC.

On page 46 of the Combat Companion, on the Unusual Organic Material table, Dir and Hoen are both listed, and Dir has 4 BI (Bonus Increments) and Hoen has 3 BI -- that is a +20 and a +15 respectively when referring to weapons (the Bonus Increments are mainly used in regards to armor, where multiple pieces can make a suit of armor - since weapons are considered 1 item, they get full BI).

[Mhairtrym]

Non-magical bonuses stack, just as magical bonuses stack, but the two do not stack together.

So you mean you take the higher of the two? So For example I have High Quality Enchanted steel 1 item, it would +15.
Would it be different if it was High Steel II non magical and the High Quality or would it again be +15 taking the higher of the two?

Thanks for the answer.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

If you have an Enchanted Iron (+5 magic) Dagger that has a +10 Quality bonus, this means that when you make attacks you have to choose between the +5 and the +10 (the +10 is NOT magical, so it provides no aid to creatures that can only be hit by magical weapons) at the time that you use it to attack.

High Steel (II) is +10 non-magical, and if there is a quality bonus of +5, that would give the weapons a total bonus of +15 (all the time).

That clearer?

[Mhairtrym]

Yes it does thank you.

By the way with the Dir wood is that Bonus magical?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

By the way with the Dir wood is that Bonus magical?

According to Combat Companion, Dir Wood gains its bonuses naturally.

However, for some settings, a GM might consider it magical... It depends on the setting...

[thrud]

Let me be the one opening Pandora's box... 
How does quality stack with magical materials such as Mithril, Laen and Eog?
And how would additional magic bonuses affect this?
I don't expect Eog to be any worse than any of the core nonmagical materials?

Would a Eog sword with master craftsmanship be +55 vs regular beings and +30 vs beings only hurt by magical weapons?
And add a +10 enchantment...
Would that make it a +55/+40 sword?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Non-magical bonuses stack, just as magical bonuses stack, but the two do not stack together.

Bonuses from Magical Materials are considered "magical bonuses".

[Marc R]

If they don't stack together, so you use one or the other as a choice, or the lower that applies automatically?

So an iron dagger of average quality +0, enchanted +10, you could choose to use it as +0 or +10?

[thrud]

Non-magical bonuses stack, just as magical bonuses stack, but the two do not stack together.

Bonuses from Magical Materials are considered "magical bonuses".

That doesn't make any sense.
A masterwork Eog sword wouldn't improve it in any way compared to one made with shoddy worksmanship. A lump of metal with a rough shape of a sword would still hit like a magical +30 broadsword, the same as one made by the legendary mastersmith.

I can see it working with enchantments but magical materials IMO are different. Am I the only one who think it's wrong?

[Steve_990]

I let them stack in my games together... I control the issue of "overgunned" bonuses with a combination of availability and cost.

So I agree with Thrud.

[Emaughan]

House rule for PCs -
Construction bonuses for weapons will stack with magical bonuses but the character only gets a +1 crafting bonus for every 4 skill levels after a base of 10 picks is aquired.  Thus Mickey the apprentice with 8 skill picks in weapon crafting could not make a weapon with any bonus do to his crafting.  His master who has 30 skill picks could make a weapon with a +5 bonus (30-10)/4.  If his master were to make a +10 magic weapon it would have an extra +5 bonus for a total of +15.  This makes more sense to me that a master alchemist can produce better weapons than his apprentice, but without too much power creep.

Also I like to keep the bonus simple and accross the board.  Splitting the bonuses vs. different types of creatures adds too much paper work.  Either the weapon can hit or can't, and if it can it gets its full bonus.

[kevinmccollum]

Emaughan, nice. I like that rule, I'm going to steal it. sorry.

[Emaughan]

That's fine - but give me an idea point!  Or better yet, a laugh point, since my kids keep asking me why I don't have any - I think they're starting to loose their confidence in their father's HQ (humor quotient).

[providence13]

IIRC, magic weapons are made from the best materials available. Is it that a + quality bonus just isn't used after it's imbued with power?

I do understand that cannon is "pick" which one you want, but it never really made sense to me. Now if your character "calls upon" the magic at specific times... and give the magic bonuses a duration, like a #Daily Item, I get it. "By the Powers of Greyskull!"

For permanent magic items, I know the bonuses could easily get out of hand and there are some good concepts here about controlling availability/power.
Yet, there are spells that increase DB, Enchanted Shield and Enchanted Robes for example. This may have been previously discussed, but if the shield has a quality bonus or the robes are some form of special "silk/hemp secret basket weave" that only an insane sect of monks can perform (limiting availability on items of quality, too.) it still contributes to DB.(?)

The spells have caveats in Special Notes 2) that the bonuses aren't cumulative with bonuses from other armor. Should this read "other armor bonuses"? I ask because the spells just state magic bonuses don't stack..
This is just for DB. I know there are spells for OB too.
I wonder why they weren't allowed but treated like magic bows and arrows; the bonuses are averaged. This would really cut down on stacking bonuses!
Magic shield +5, magic armor +10 = +7 or +8, however you do it. Even allowing a quality of +10, you only have +17/18 DB, instead of +20 as it stands now.

The rules for one thing seem to be changed for another, when they made sense for the first!

I'm just asking, because it always made me think, "huh?".

[markc]

 If you think about it, it might be better to make a +5 magic copper sword than a +5 low steel sword.

 Also in my game they do not always use the best material to make magic items.

MDC

[kevinmccollum]

I remember something years ago, before the treasure companion, that said negative material bonuses stack with magical bonuses so a +5 magical copper sword would be -15 (copper being a -20 material)

[Marc R]

So copper is softer than +0 so it's material bonus stacks, but high carbon steel is harder than +0 but it doesn't?

That seems a kind of odd logic to take, sort of a purely meta angle. . .though it does avoid oragami magic weapons. . . .paper -100, enchanted +5, used as +5?

[Cormac Doyle]

You never heard of the fan of death?

I do not stack material bonuses with magic bonuses ... this allows you to have a "magic +5 (+25 shark slaying) dagger fashioned from the tooth of a shark"

However, to use a magic bnonus (say, +15) the combined material/workmanship bonus must be at least (magic bonus -5)

So you can have a soft copper blade (default = -10), but it must be worked on by a master smith while it is being enchanted (giving is a material/workmanship net bonus of +0)

This is how elves (who cannot touch cold iron) can still have +15 longswords ... they may be made of a copper alloy - but it has been worked by a master smith and has an equivalent tensile strength to high steel ...

[Marc R]

How would you "work" the tooth of a shark to improve it's quality up from the bone penalty to +/-0 (or +20 for 5 under the slaying bonus?). . .or is the quality reflected in the hilt and mounting in an instance like that?