Author Topic: Tinkering with the Bard  (Read 4478 times)

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Offline ToM

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Tinkering with the Bard
« on: November 26, 2008, 04:39:47 AM »
I always loved the flavor of the Bard profession since my old MERP days.
Those days Bards were really interesting and useful charcters, able to fill in various party roles such as support fighting, subterfuge, delving, and even magic.

However, RMSS/FRP seriously hampered IMHO the utility of such a character, giving him really uneasy developement point costs for useful skills and very unfair base lists. The only useful list they have left is Controlling Songs, the other being a mess of practically useless or duplicated spells, and full of missing spells at various lower levels which make developing them very difficult for a low-level semi.
Also, the general "mood" of the character is a little lost, since it is no more capable of support magic (being a Mentalism user not an Essence one).
I also like the D&D 3ed concept of the awe-and-courage-inspiring Bard, which is not implemented in Rolemaster at all.

So, I thought about tweaking the profession a little.

First of all, I substituted the (frankly useless) Entrtaining Ways list with Paladin's Insipiring Ways. It has the right mood for the character I feel and it is not umbalancing as well. I am still thinking about a subsititute for Item Lore which is also less than useful. Maybe fusing it with the Lore spell list mantaining only some spell of each list and adding another base list. Maybe some Dabbler base. Maybe some Lay Healer base (since I like the idea of the heling music). Another one that seems good is the Charades TP list from Mentalism Companion. Input needed here.

Second, I modified a little the costs for some skills.
I took the Magent weapon group costs and substituted it to the Bard's. Now the Bard has some edge to develop a primary weapon which is on par with more combat-oriented classes. However, since his Armor Group costs are higher than other semi's, he would not take exceptional advantage from these increased combat capabilities, so IMHO it's not overkill to much. He still has the option do develop a missile or thrown weapon as primary and have some ranged skill to help.

The rest of the skills seems quite right to fit the role.
He can develop a good subterfuge and decent athletic skills, and has excellent costs in lore skills, which are not umbalancing but add flavour.

All in all, I think the profession is much more playable now.

Ideas and comments?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2008, 04:59:15 AM by ToM »
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2008, 06:31:14 AM »
I let bards choose 6 spell list as their "base" from the following:

-   Controlling Songs (Spell Law) [This is a must, all Bards must choose this list as Base]
-   Entertaining Ways (Spell Law)
-   Item Lore (Spell Law)
-   Lores (Spell Law)
-   Sound Control (Spell Law)
-   Sound Projection (Spell Law)
-   Body (Combat Companion)
-   Control (Combat Companion)
-   Sensing (Combat Companion)
-   Way of the Voice (Mentalism Companion)

This imho gives bards a little more versatility and make them more appealing to players. BTW I've done the same things for the ranger:

-   Inner Walls (Spell Law)
-   Moving Ways (Spell Law)
-   Nature?s Guises (Spell Law)
-   Nature?s Summons (Spell Law)
-   Nature?s Ways (Spell Law)
-   Path Mastery (Spell Law)
-   Faith?s Shield (Combat Companion)
-   Faith?s Weapon (Combat Companion)
-   Succor (Combat Companion)
-       Hunting Mastery (Channeling Companion)
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Offline mocking bird

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2008, 09:34:44 AM »
At least you didn't name the thread 'fiddling with the bard'....


Anyway - a few things.

Why the bent towards making the bard rangery?  I would think they would be more citi-folk.

We actually like the item lore list as it is pretty much the only one available to identify items.

But I would agree the bard's non-existent combat abilities have made the class a no-show in our group.  Only one player took it and we added some lists to make it more survivable - I think they were spell singer-type lists from one of the Companions.
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline ToM

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2008, 10:26:39 AM »
Why the bent towards making the bard rangery?  I would think they would be more citi-folk.

I don't agree with this.

Surely they're not outdoors and survival experts as the Ranger, but I tend to think at bards like wanderers, adventurers and travelers par excellance.
How could they collect the lore they are so eager to possess if not with wandering and adventuring?

They are (by MERP definitions, at least) "eclectics" and can fill any role.
Really in RMSS they can't fill any role other than cannon fodder. Useless wheenies.

More urban-based profession are, in my opinion, the Magent and the Dabbler.

But, I agree the Item Lore list is unique in Spell Law.
It is also, however, full of duplicated spells (scaled from lower level enteries) and useless ones. I am thinking about blending the Lores list (which is also a learn-lanuage-spell after another) and the Item Lore one together.

And what about healing capabilities?
The idea of the "healing music" really doesn't appeal you? I think it's somehow characteristic.
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Offline markc

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2008, 01:09:04 PM »
 I have no problem with adapting professions to fit a setting. As it is said above just what is the Bards role in your campaign? Kings spy? Travelling player? Wander? etc.
 Once you have your idea set you cut and past from other professions and then test your creation.

 If you move the item lore list to an open every realm then anyone can take it and that duty is striped from the bard. Which is fine for some games and not for others.

I would like to hear how your play test comes out.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2008, 01:49:39 AM »
You can always switch Bards to Essence if you want to. Also Monks to Mentalism. Mentalism is, however, the best realm for the back-up fighter role, since you can wear armor without difficulty.

I will agree the Bard lists are a bit weak, but I would not characterize them as "useless". They are not hackfest-friendly characters, I will grant. Bards, like Rangers, suffer from being a multi-role concept, which means spreading the DPs a bit thin.

I would point out, however, that Bards are primarily social skills and performance specialists, with a bit of loremastering thrown in. The other stuff is just picked up as useful to survive while getting from gig to gig. If you think they need upgraded combat skills to survive in your setting, go ahead and grant them. Dead men tell no tales, nor pass the hat afterwards.

Bards are neither urban or wilderness based. Urban areas will have plenty of established news and entertainment sources; they have little need of a wandering musician/poet/storyteller. In the wilderness, birds pay very little for the pleasure of competing with a harp or mandolin. Bards travel settled, but largely rural areas, where entertainment and news are desired, but hard to come by. They travel by roads, because that's how you get from village to village to castle. You can modify the Profession however you want for your setting, but if this part isn't true, it really isn't a Bard anymore, even if it is a Magic-using Musician.
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Offline Dark Schneider

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2008, 05:09:55 AM »
I think too that Bard is a disadvantaged profession.

Quote
First of all, I substituted the (frankly useless) Entrtaining Ways list with Paladin's Insipiring Ways. It has the right mood for the character I feel and it is not umbalancing as well. I am still thinking about a subsititute for Item Lore which is also less than useful.

I agree, 1st one is really covered by 2 skills, we could call them 'prestidigitation' in art/active and 'prestidigitation lore' in lore/obscure, that are what magicians in real life use. We know that RM really is an infinite skills game, in manual are listed the more used, but as we have the categories there is no problem in adding what we need. It is not really useless, depends on your games, for a combat game style, it is useless, but if you need to act for money it is usefull as it helps you, maybe a good bard earns much money entertaining a royal court, and adding background music to your acting I am sure is usefull for that.

2nd one it would be usefull with greater % in identifying items, a 10% per 'I' and level is very low, as you can cover that with skills:

- Spells in items (potions, etc.): attunement.
- Abilities: 'item lore' or other spells that says you the item function, and once you know them, try-and-error.

Quote
with Paladin's Insipiring Ways

I'd change the list in the way 'songs' works, so I'd put them 50' radius and 'C' for time duration (as works while you are singing), you can amplify them as any other songs. Target can be 'all allies' in radius.
so the list could be named 'Insipiring Songs', based on paladin 'Insipiring Ways' but with bard style.
We only need to see 'Controlling Songs' to know how songs works, and copy it.

Quote
I took the Magent weapon group costs and substituted it to the Bard's.

No problem as they are both mentalism semi-spell users.

I'd not change the bard to essence as I think it has been moved to mentalism intentionally, with the mentalism 'range' limitations, as its 'group' spells are supposed to be the songs, not its open or closed realm lists.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2008, 05:17:04 AM by Dark Schneider »

Offline ToM

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2008, 05:30:39 AM »
Useful inputs Dark Schneider!

I particularly like the idea of changing the way Inspiring Ways works to have it function more "bard-style". This way I think it will be very simple to adapt also a healing list to work the same way.

Or, perhaps, building a third "songs" list which will work for embedding spells in it, much like the "Divine Aura" list in Channeling Companion. I would call it "Spell Songs" or the like. The basic idea is to have spell effects from other spell lists (mainly open & closed the bard will develop separately) be combined with s "song" effect (duration, area and range).
So we would se "light aura" songs giving shimmering +5 DB to all allies, or "healing I" songs restoring 1d10 hits to the whole aligned audience...
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Offline Dark Schneider

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2008, 07:27:54 AM »
Quote
adapt also a healing list

Take much care with that as I think in rolemaster healing is limited intentionally, it can be unbalanced, think that in any case a 'lay healer' must be very much powerfull for healing than a bard, so try to balance with that in mind.

Offline ToM

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2008, 08:46:41 AM »
Would Paladin's Holy Healing be a good choice in your opinion?
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Offline Dark Schneider

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2008, 10:21:04 AM »
Maybe, but you should balance the range and number of targets affected improvement with some penalties.

The number of targets should be 1 (like in 'Controlling Songs') inside the range, and for the range, maybe the target should ear the song 1 min. to be effective.

Offline ToM

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2008, 11:15:48 AM »
I will think about it and come back with whichever solution I'd come up with...
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2008, 05:07:22 PM »
If  you're going to give healing and inspiring spell list to the bard I would change his Realm of power to Channeling. Mentalism spell rarely affect more than one target or heal other than "self".
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Offline markc

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2008, 05:08:54 PM »
 For healing maybe the list should speed up specific types of healing when listining to music. That way it is not instant healing.

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Offline ToM

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2008, 05:07:23 AM »
Actually, I'm working on a spell list to fill in the gap.
It's the above mentioned "magic songs" list which will have "spell song #" spells in it and also "healing song #" spells included.

The idea beneath the "healing song" spell is to have the listening audience regenerate 1 or more hits/minute as long as the bard entertains them (concentrating). It will only be usable in non-combat situations.

The first healing spell will be at 3rd level with scaled-up spells at 8th (2 hits/min), 14th (3 hits/min), 20th (lord spell: 5 hits/min) and 30th (true spell: 20% hits restored each minute).
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2008, 09:58:24 PM »
Actually, there are a lot of good Mentalism spells. Maybe create a "Sharing Songs" list for the Bard that allows him to cast all those nifty "Self" spells on others? Then he could develop a wide range of effects by learning different existing spell lists, with only one new list needing to be created.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2008, 12:27:43 AM »
Quote
Maybe create a "Sharing Songs" list for the Bard that allows him to cast all those nifty "Self" spells on others?

When I saw this, I thought "WARNING! WARNING! WARNING!"

I would be very careful about giving spells whose normal range is "self" a range, especially one so broad as a 50'r area of effect. Most "self" spells are things that create serious power balance issues when they become too universal. I remember from the old background options in RoCo I, Spatial Skills: Range of all spells is doubled. "Self" becomes "Touch", "Touch" becomes 5'. That could be dealt with, but it was difficult to keep it from unbalancing the game.

Quote
It's the above mentioned "magic songs" list which will have "spell song #" spells in it and also "healing song #" spells included.

The idea beneath the "healing song" spell is to have the listening audience regenerate 1 or more hits/minute as long as the bard entertains them (concentrating). It will only be usable in non-combat situations.

Personally I liked markc's idea. Something along the lines of, "Lv 3, Healing Song I(c): All allies within 50' heal/recover at twice normal rate. Instantaneous healing not affected in any way."
That way he's still a bard, not a healer. And yet the healers and their patients have a real reason to appreciate him as a 'therapist'. You still can't get by without a healer of some sort, but the presence of the bard makes a LOT of difference, especially at low levels when herbs and bedrest are more common forms of healing as opposed to spells and items. And yet even at high levels, a healer can save a lot of power points by doing herbs and first aid while the bard increases their recovery rate by a factor of 5 or 10. Good for when everyone in a large party is wounded, as it allows the healer to save his spells for the one or two who are in critical condition.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2008, 08:13:07 PM »
Quote
Maybe create a "Sharing Songs" list for the Bard that allows him to cast all those nifty "Self" spells on others?

When I saw this, I thought "WARNING! WARNING! WARNING!"

I would be very careful about giving spells whose normal range is "self" a range, especially one so broad as a 50'r area of effect.

Oh, darn. I was going to suggest a 50' radius effect as the 1st level spell on that list. Or maybe one could start with a range of "touch" and work up from there.

Quote
Most "self" spells are things that create serious power balance issues when they become too universal.

Actually, most of the spells that become unbalanced if changed from "self" are base lists. With a Bard, we're talking about Open and possibly Closed Mentalism lists, where many of the "self" spells are the same as or very close to Essence spells that can be cast on others. They are often lower level than the corresponding Essence spell, but having to cast two spells would more than make that up. Also, these would be "songs", meaning that the Bard needs to keep playing/singing to keep the effect going (unless a high level spell, call it "Persistant Echo" allows a non-concentration duration), limiting him to one spell at a time. Also, we are talking about giving this ability to a semi-spell user, so spell selection and PPs are likely to be fairly restricted. A Pure would be much more powerful with such an ability.

Quote
I remember from the old background options in RoCo I, Spatial Skills: Range of all spells is doubled. "Self" becomes "Touch", "Touch" becomes 5'. That could be dealt with, but it was difficult to keep it from unbalancing the game.

Yes, but that gives additional range free and the change from Touch to ranged is just as dangerous as the transition from Self to Touch. However, the Open and Closed Mentalism lists generally have "Self" spells for reasons of realm-characterization rather than balance (the levels of the spells are adjusted a bit for balance given the "Self" limitation, but the effects themselves are generally available for use on others). The worst abuse potential I can see is the Bard's Lore list. OTOH, I think having a Bard in your language class could benefit everyone, so I'm not sure even this is such a bad thing.

There's a big difference between Sharing Songs and that Background Option. To cast a Self spell on others, the Bard will need to expend additional PPs and roll for another chance of spell failure. He might even need to cast *three* spells, if he casts one Sharing Songs spell to use his spell at a range and another to affect multiple targets. He's also being a noisy target and more likely to draw fire than a cast-and-be-done support magic type.

Quote
Quote
It's the above mentioned "magic songs" list which will have "spell song #" spells in it and also "healing song #" spells included.

The idea beneath the "healing song" spell is to have the listening audience regenerate 1 or more hits/minute as long as the bard entertains them (concentrating). It will only be usable in non-combat situations.

Personally I liked markc's idea. Something along the lines of, "Lv 3, Healing Song I(c): All allies within 50' heal/recover at twice normal rate. Instantaneous healing not affected in any way."
That way he's still a bard, not a healer.

With my suggestion, the Bard will need to learn Self Healing, which is at least an Open list, so not too troublesome (and Self Healing is good anyway). He would be able to heal 1 hit/minute using Pain Relief I (a 5th level spell) plus an appropriate Sharing Songs spell. A Lay Healer can cure 1 hit/minute with a 4th level spell and has many more healing abilities.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2008, 11:37:26 PM »
Oh, darn. I was going to suggest a 50' radius effect as the 1st level spell on that list.

Well I'll freely admit I didn't go digging into books to look up the list, and I'm sure RM2/RMC lists (what I'm most used to) have their differences from RMFRP lists, but aren't most "song" spells in effect for everyone within earshot?

Quote
Or maybe one could start with a range of "touch" and work up from there.

I like it. You can heal multiple targets at low levels, but only if you sit in a circle, hold hands and sing "Kumbaya".
It's really sick, I like it.

 ;D
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Offline vroomfogle

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Re: Tinkering with the Bard
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2009, 09:13:31 AM »
A player of mine and I are working on some updated Bard lists.  We started kicking around ideas before this thread started and came up with some ideas that are similar to what is presented here.   We are playtesting some of them this weekend.   We'll probably submit them to the Guild Companion for Feb or March.