Topic: Semi-Spellusers

[Nejira]

What are your experience with semi-spellusers in RMC? It seems to me that they first come into their own on a slightly higher level than say pure melee professions. You can?t spend too many DPs on developing spelllists as its expensive and you still need to train that swordarm.

Btw, isn?t 4 DP per rank a bit high in RMC?

[thrud]

Yeah, being a semi suck in the beginning...

[Skaran]

The other thing is that at low levels with typical PC parties of say 2-4 players you need the semis just to cover, if poorly, as many areas as you can.

Hope your GM can balance things to give you a fighting chance.

[Setorn]

My advice to my players has always been to wait on spells.  Maybe one spell list or very few ranks first to fifth level.  They should build up Body Development, arms, armor and Power point Development.  Most have been happy with that.  It gives them something to do (combat) in earlier levels with a few spells and later they may expand from there. 

[thrud]

That sounds about right, just buy a rank or two each level and trust in luck.

[Nejira]

Sounds like playing a semi is for the patience among us

Sounds like a lot with 4 times as high a cost as pures.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Sounds like a lot with 4 times as high a cost as pures.

If using Spell Law option 2.2, semis cost are only double what pures and hybrids pay.   

[Justin]

I'm not sure about Spell Law options, but when I run Spell List Acquisition in sets: Pures 1/*, Hybrids 2/*, Semis 4/*.

However, I have found that for semi's sakes, it is best to go with Individual Spell Acquisition. The ratio on costs is maintained (2:4:8 = 1:2:4), but there's no more gambling. If a semi spends the points, they get something for it. My very first RM game ever, I was playing a Nightblade, a friend had a Warrior Mage. No matter how little he spent on SLA, he made his roll every level. Me? I spent the last 3 levels and @40 DP failing to get a list.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

According to the options in RMC Spell Law, individual spell acquisition (option 2.2 actually) pures and hybrids pay 2 per rank, and semis and nons may their normal amounts (4 and whatever respectively).

And all spell users are limited to 3 ranks per list, and no more than 5 lists at those costs per level (i.e. in one level a pure can spend 30 DP to get 3 ranks in each of 5 different lists -- after that, their costs go up -- doubled, if I remember correctly).

[Marc R]

I find that while SLA tends to slow down Semis, games that use Power Point Development make them so expensive you're better off playing a pure caster and eating 9/rank to develop a weapon every level. (IMO If playing with PPD and the Combat Companion style costs, they become essentially a self inflicted E accounting critical)

At points, it almost becomes true that the only reason to play a semi, is to get access to their base lists, or because you love the concept. . .it's a rough road to play. (The benefits do become more pronounced at high levels, since the pure arms or pure caster run out of things to pay for, the semi due to their high-average costs keep plugging away. . .but I still suspect that the power skew is usually going to be in favor of pures of either type)

OTOH the single best option for semis is the "Add stat bonus to SLA rolls" rule. . .(But then I dislike random SLA so, um, eh. . .)

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Yes, PPD (Power Point Development) as a skill really hurts semis -- and as such, although it is included as an optional skill in RMC (in fact, it was included at the request of some of the RMC Team members), ICE would never recommend actually using it as it reduces the overall power levels of semis while increasing the overall power levels of pures and hybrids (a pure could get 2 ranks for every one a semi got) .

In fact, ICE specifically does not use it (the PPD skill) in the RMX/RMC guidelines that we are developing for authors (mentioned in another thread). We do, however, use the Base Power Points option (Option 4, RMC Spell Law page 29).


As for SLA, using option 2.2 from RMC Spell Law (which is what ICE reccomends), semi spell users will likely average slightly less than half the number of spells gained per level when compared to pures and hybrids - give or take a few, depending upon player foci for the character. (This being because of the simple fact that pures and hybrids pay 2 DP per spell while semis pay 4 DP).

And I think that that sort of average development difference between pures/hybrids and semis is about the right variance.

[Marc R]

I think one thing that ties back into the comments above is the 2nd costs. . .the speed of progression of a character is tied to how fast you rank, and it's rarely a good idea on any non X/* skill for a semi to 2 rank in something within a level. . .where the fighter might be spending 1/5=6DP, the semi is often spending 3/7=10dp. . .considering how many skills the semi is going to be single ranking at 3 (rather than 1-2 for a pure to either side) they can't really afford to be two ranking at 10dp cost.

That tends to create that "Slow" effect people were discussing above.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Actually, a quick check shows that semis have costs that are comparable (on average) to non-spell users for most secondary skills. It is only the primary skills  where they have the costs that are so different form the pures or nons, and in many cases, they also end up shorted on the number of ranks that they are allowed to purchase in these skills compared to those who have the best costs.

So it is more than just costs, but also the number of ranks allowed to be purchased per level, working together to cause the problems for semis.

For example, with Power Point Development (PPD), one of the skills being specifically discussed above, I think that it is the fact that pures can buy 2 ranks per level of PPD (cost of 1/4) for the same cost as the one rank that semis are allowed to purchase each level (5 DP) that would be the main cause of the slow down (2 ranks allowed versus 1 rank allowed)

For spell lists, the cost difference when using Option 2.2 is reduced from 4x as expensive for semis to 2x as expensive and makes it so that no profession can learn more than 3 spells in a list each level). This doesn't change what the semi pays for spells, but it does slow down the pures slightly, which makes the semis more competitive in the regard of purchasing lists.

[Nejira]

So it is more than just costs, but also the number of ranks allowed to be purchased per level, working together to cause the problems for semis.

I never understood the whole max X ranks/lvl difference. Why not keep it simple to having the cost to develop skills differ but the number of ranks being the same regardless of profession? Makes more sense IMO

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I never understood the whole max X ranks/lvl difference. Why not keep it simple to having the cost to develop skills differ but the number of ranks being the same regardless of profession? Makes more sense IMO

Makes more sense to me as well. And that is how we did it for HARP.  ;D  RM, on the other hand, was created long before I came to work for ICE, so I have no idea why they went that route.


Personally, I think that having only the following costs (1/3, 2/5, 3/7, 4/9, 5/11) would be more than enough, with all ranks beyond the first costing the second cost. That gives  a good range of costs, I think.

[Marc R]

All depends on how strong you want the archetyping force to be. . .with a spread of costs from 1-20 (or higher) it's very strong, with a spread of costs like 1-4 it's very weak. . .1-11 would fall somewhere in the middle. I tend to moderate that by what professions I allow.

Diminishing returns on ranks tends to push people to spread out and become more round. (Semis, by being already spread, tend to take longer to reach diminishing returns)

I suspect that if one created a series of 50th level characters, you'd see how a 1-4 spread would result in very round characters that can do a lot of things very well, and everything at least moderately well. . .while the 1-20 spread would still see archetype focus having a strong effect. . .

There's really no right or wrong answer there, it's more a matter of how strong you want archetyping to be. I've played RM with no-semis allowed, which makes for rigid archetyping, or with "All characters are no professions" which leads to weak archetypes. (Though you'd be surprised actually, how much archetyping players enforce on themselves, especially at lower levels, in the "All NP environment.")

As I see it, there are 3 factors in play for archetyping.

The cost spreads (Much discussed already)
The Size of the Skill Set (Fewer skills leads to more round characters, more skills to stronger archetypes)
Diminishing returns (The prod to get out of archetyping and become more round)

Semis, as is, with a relatively small skill set, tend toward round, slow development, but I don't necissarily see that as a problem, in exchange for being slow developing, they have more abilities and options.

Much of the complaints to both sides on semis don't end up directly related to cost, but to cost-benefit. . .Most of the core semi spell lists are weaker versions of pure lists, so even with the 2.2 option for individual development in place, they're paying twice as much DP for a much weaker spell, so even if the cost is x2, the cost-benefit is more like x3 or x5. (Compare the Ranger lists to the Animist lists for instance). . .then many of the semis that people complained were too strong was not due to direct costs, but because their lists were stronger, as good or better than the core pures. (Compare "Guardian's Ways" to the rest of the ranger lists for instance.). . .with a game like RM, it's often hard to define the cost-benefit broadly.

That kind of makes the semis a mixed bag. . .in many rules set ups you might be better off playing an Animist with a lot of combat skills rather than a Ranger, but probably you're better off playing a Venturer than trying to make a martial skill focused Mentalist.

[Althalus]

And you shoudn't forget that semispellusers get exp for combat and also for spells, so they develop faster, I havent tested the semis from combat companion(venturer, elemental warior and wathc'a'mycall'it), lets say Arms master was allways the most powerfull warior in the group, alleasy 10 steps ahead of the other fighters.

[dutch206]

Speaking of semis, I really don't like that holy symbol list that Champions get.  I'm thinking of replacing it with either another deity-specific list or "Guardian Ways" from RMC I.  (It gives the champions abilities even a full priest of that faith doesn't get access to).

I'd have no problem giving that list to a priest, OTOH.