Author Topic: Random Musings on Spell Casting....  (Read 6907 times)

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Offline Marc R

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Re: Random Musings on Spell Casting....
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2008, 08:40:28 AM »
A few questions, since this is spitball, you might not have gotten to these yet, but if you have, I don't notice these details above.

1) Is this an open ended, or closed roll?
2) Are there UM results?

Comparing this to the previous systems, I disliked the RM2 method, since it required you to roll twice, but on the upside it did make tampering with spells somewhat risky. I had issues with the RMSS Spell Casting Static Maneuver method, in that it tended to act like "Magical Ritual by proxy" by making tampering too safe and easy. . . .RMC made the RM2 method into 1 roll, but kept the risk levels fairly high.

This system seems to resemble the SCSM method most, so it runs the risk of having similar issues, I suspect this is familiar to anyone who used SCSM or one of it's variants:

"I use flamboyant gestures, loud incantations, take 10 rounds, plus my skill, level and stat bonus, plus etc, etc". . .which resulted in a total bonus that allowed things like overcasting 10 levels casually.

Since all the bonuses and penalties come out of the same pool, if you can accumulate a lot of bonus, you can ignore or circumvent most or all of the restrictions in place on casting. This mostly was a serious problem with out of combat casting, where casters seemed to routinely overcast. (As opposed to the ESF methods that raised the UM failure rate, with few angles to reduce it.)

This method does address some of the problems in SCSM by toning down the input bonuses, but some care needs to be addressed to the scale of all the inputs. . .like a fair elf mentalist with a 101 presence is going to start off 0 level with a +45 spell casting bonus just due to stat and race. With the "per rank" bonus reduced to +1/rank that's 45 rank equivalents which seems like a really out of control bonus input, with that sort of headstart, that character could casually overcast 6 levels with 10 ranks in a list. There are loads of inputs that all need to be put on the same scale as a method like this is refined and detailed to bring all into balance. That's all just detailing, but it's important detailing.

I'd suggest considering the RMC scaling options (options 3.1 and 3.2) for incorporation into the logic, where a 5th level caster wanting to cast a 1st level spell with 5th level effects (RR vs 5th level, X/lv effects at 5th level) needs to spend 5 PP and it casts as a 5th level effect.

Overcasting seems to be the boogum in any SCSM type method of summed bonuses/penalties. . .game balance is only slightly effected if you balance say "no hands" and "No incantations" against "Level bonus" and "Take extra time", while instances where a caster piles up every possible bonus to offset an overcasting penalty tends to be where summed modifier methods begin to resemble mini magical rituals and bend or break game balance. . .perhaps just use the ESF logic of raised UM failure rate only for overcasting? (Or have an option to make overcasting use the ESF method for GMs who want to allow overcasting, but maintain it as risky, rather than casual.)

As a complete aside, a lot matters as to what feel you want as GM, and I suspect that if HARP can have 3 combat systems, it might be worthwhile to consider multiple magic mechanics or one core mechanic with options to signifigantly shift it's results. . .for a no magic game, it's easy, for a high magic game, with lots of caster stretch room, a SCSM style method seems ideal, while in a more limited magic game, the RMC style method seems to work better.
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Random Musings on Spell Casting....
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2008, 09:09:56 AM »
Quote
1) Is this an open ended, or closed roll?
2) Are there UM results?

1) Open-ended, of course.

2) Currently no. Nor do I think that there should be, at least not at the stage of just musing about it..


Offline Fornitus

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Re: Random Musings on Spell Casting....
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2008, 10:36:11 AM »
 Moriarty- 4th lvl magicisn, +20 (stat), +8 (lvl bonus), -40 (2 rnds required prep), -35 (Over casting) ,-4 (base fumble) = -51
 So the PC has almost a 50/50 chance of success. If they fail, they blow up real well. And this sort of desperation only happens when combat is already out of the PC's controll. Whitch should be rather often. ;D
 The 100 point penality is NOT in any of the books. Its just a nasty house rule to force the players to plan their attacks better so theiy dont end up needing an instant fireball. Also makes the fighters needed regardless of the lvl of the casters in the party. A 20th lvl Magician in most scenarios can pretty mutch handel whatever comes up by himself in most encounters, but with this penality to ALL casting (not items ;D) even theis great mage needs his friends on a regular basis.
 And if time is not a factor, then the casters get the full prep time and the extra bonus for extra prep. +40 I beleive in the old books (yes its +30 in RMC). So in effect, overcasting becomes "rare if ever" until the caster CAN handel it. We also put in some other optional bonuses but to specific to add here.
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Offline Moriarty

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Re: Random Musings on Spell Casting....
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2008, 11:16:06 AM »
Moriarty- 4th lvl magicisn, +20 (stat), +8 (lvl bonus), -40 (2 rnds required prep), -35 (Over casting) ,-4 (base fumble) = -51
You must be confusing this with RMSS/FRP rules. There is no spell casting maneuver roll in the RM2/RMC rules.
The Magician does not get to add his stat, level bonus, or any of those things to a spell casting roll.
...the way average posters like Moriarty read it.

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Random Musings on Spell Casting....
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2008, 11:34:24 AM »
Actually there is a spell casting roll, and Pure/hybids get to add +1 per level to their rolls. There is an option, IIRC, that allows for the adding of stat. Refer to RMC Spell Law, starting on page 37 for more information.

Also -- Spell Law refers to what I am calling "fumble" as "Spell Failure" -- so when I say fumble, I am talking about Spell Failure (which requires roll on Spell Failure Table), and when I say failure, I mean "the spell does not work, and the worst result for player is loss of PP for the spell.



For Non-attack spells, the roll is fumble/succeed. (see RMC Spell Law, page 37)

For non-elemental attack spells, the roll is made on the Base Spell Attack table and the result adjusts the RR (and it DOES include "F" result outside the fumble range) -- but still, the result matrix is fumble/succeed, it is just that succeed has a range of possible results.

For elemental attack spells, the Directed Spell skill is used (or the mod mentioned above for area affect spells) and you have fumble/succeed, although even with succeed you can still miss the target, and have a range of possible results...



Offline Moriarty

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Re: Random Musings on Spell Casting....
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2008, 04:22:19 PM »
Actually there is a spell casting roll, and Pure/hybids get to add +1 per level to their rolls. There is an option, IIRC, that allows for the adding of stat. Refer to RMC Spell Law, starting on page 37 for more information.

There is of course a spell casting roll - there is always a roll, that's why it's called Rollmaster, heh - but not a spell casting static maneuver like in RMSS/FRP to which Fornitus seems to be referring above (he mentions -35 for two rounds of overcasting, where does that come from, if not from the spell casting modification table of RMSS/FRP?). I only wanted to point out that in RM2/RMC (which is what is being discussed here, correct me if I am mistaken) things don't exactly work that way. Now, an option to add stat to spell casting roll that you mention Rasyr - I am not sure which option that is or where I can find it - but obviously the caster adds stat when using directed spells like Fireball (since it's a skill) but otherwise no skill or stat is added when casting spells in RM2/RMC core. If there were such an option, I can't see why any GM or gaming group would initially decide to use it, then decide that spell casters are overpowered, and finally decide to nerf them with a global -100 modifier.

I think it is important to agree on the topic and not mix up different systems, especially when an argument is made about spell casters being generally overpowered at level 4.
...the way average posters like Moriarty read it.

Offline Marc R

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Re: Random Musings on Spell Casting....
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2008, 04:30:42 PM »
Ugh, just noticed I've ended up in another signature.

Moriarty, Rasyr is speculatively discussing a possible new rule or interpretation, laid out in the first post of this thread, not one of the previous published options.

It resembles SCSM out of RMSS to me too, but I see signifigant differences. He's said it's a spitball version, so perhaps we'll see another update based on all the comments, but the version posted first in this thread, and elaborated on in the following posts is what's being discussed.
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Offline Fornitus

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Re: Random Musings on Spell Casting....
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2008, 04:32:05 PM »
 Moriarty- Maybe in RoleMaster one then. Back when Character and Campaign Law were seperate books as well as having the 3 spell realms in completely seperate books also. Been a lot of alterations, changes, and options in the years since I started playing RM way back in 1985 or so. ;D
 Besides, if there was no roll at all for a utility spell, what happens if the party is in an anti-node?(where spells cost more insted of less) You would let your PC cast his Teleport and just spend double the points (whitch is the same as overcasting to 20th) to succede without any more difucilty than if he did it at the regular 10 PP?
 
 Just caught your last comment, regardless of the penalitys or bonuses of the world, no 2 casters are equal. That is why including the stat is so nessacairy.
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Offline Arioch

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Re: Random Musings on Spell Casting....
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2008, 06:24:05 AM »
Maybe this is a little too different from the current approach, but I had an idea that could work with this casting system.
Using the system proposed by Rasyr caster has to roll CTN or plus to succeed in casting his spell.
Then, if the spell is an attack spell, he has to roll for attack or for RR modifications and his target has to roll for his RR.
What if, instead of rolling on the basic attack table, we use the result of the casting roll as a target number for the resisting character RR (in a way similar to how HARP handle RRs)?

For example:
A 5th level spell have a CTN of 45, the mage casting it roll and adds his bonuses, obtaining a total result of 64. He succeeded in casting the spell, and his target has to obtain a result of 64 or more with his RR to resist the effects of the spell.

The same number could also be used as a target number for dispelling/cancelling spells. Caster level is already taken in account by the bonuses that the caster recieve in his casting manuever.
As a side note this method would make higher level spells difficult to cast but also more difficult to resist than low level ones.

Obviously this is only a rough idea and cannot work without some adjustment... It just came to my mind and I wanted to know what do you think about it  ;D
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