Topic: My spellresearch as a player

[thrud]

Today I represent a selfish powerhungry Archmage bent on world domination.
We are starting up a new campaign due to some minor mishaps. Random deaths, mind slavavery and other events to horrible to mention.
The GM is very promising but somewhat inexperienced.
We are playing RMC with a lot of influences from RM2.

I am playing a Dyari Archmage (based on RoCo I) somewhat atracted to the dark side but I try not to go mental and wreck havoc on the world at large. (Concentrated fury is the key)
As one of my base lists I have been allowed to pick the Dark Channels list. I know... it rocks. 
At Lv2 we have dark stunning which is a nice little spell.

I would like to expand on that concept and using the spell research rules found in spell law I would like to fill some of the blank spaces on the list.
Bear in mind I'm an Archmage...

I would like to add Nether bolts to the list. 
Yeah, I know... crazy. Right?

How about:
Lv4 - Minor Nether bolt, use shock bolt table with nether crits
Lv9 - Nether bolt, 100' range
Lv14 - 300' range
Lv19 - 500' range

So, this a purly selfish thing since I'll be doing the research but I want to keep it within reason. To powerful too soon and it's no fun.
Thus Id like to hear your take on the issue.
Is it a fair interpretation using nether as a physical manifistation of channeling the wrath of a dark god? I find no better element?
Are the levels ok?
Personally I would rather have used Lv 10,15 and 20 but they are already taken.

What say you?
It's because of the inexperienced GM that I'm asking.

[Temujin]

I wouln't allow it as GM, because imho, Nether bolts don't fit on a Dark Channels list.  Lots of things could go in there, but I don't see that as one.

[thrud]

I like the element as a raw primal force of destrucion.

[PiXeL01]

Why not use Darkness as an element instead? That is usually associated with the forces of Evil anyway, where are Nether is "a mass of nothingness". According to Elemental Companion it isnt evil or seeking the destruction of anything. It mearly has a disruptive effect.

Also I wouldnt allow the use of Plasma or Nether unless an Elementalist user or through Arcane lists.
On a sidenote I have an Evil Cleric using the Necromancer list of Dark Law

[Arioch]

What if you use Black Channel to gain access to Nether Bolt? Black Channel (I, II and III) should have a different effect based on your deity: just pick Nether Bolt as Black Channel I, a Nether Bolt with increased range for Black Channel II and something like Call of the Void (=disintegration) for Black Channel III... 

[Fornitus]

 I like Ariochs method. Just replace the channels with the element closest to your diety.

 However, take a look at Void Law in the Arcaine Comp. An Arcaine Demon Summoner in a campain I am running has it. It seems more balanced after a little play than it originaly appeared. Basicly, a Nether like attack, but, it also sucks Power Points from the target or area. Definatily flows better as a true "DARK" attack. Feels better than Necro and Nether. Has a great flavor.

[munchy]

In RMCII there is that Necromancer list "Dark Law" which has Darkbolt on level three, equivalent of a shockbolt using cold criticals, as well as a "Darkfire Bolt" on level 12 which is a lightning bolt with cold (a-j), electricity (secondary on f-j) and impact (tertiary on h-j) criticals.
Or somewhere else, but I cannot remember where it was, there is that darkfire bolt which is a black or blue-black firebolt with cold crits.
Mind you, the first Nether Bolt on its original list in RMCIII is on level TEN and that's an ARCANE list, which in my opinion speaks for those spell not to be found on any professional list and definitely not in lower levels than they are on that list!!

I wouldn't allow your option as I think nether is way too powerful, go for cold crits and electricity. Nether as well as plasma should really stay on those lists they are on. They have a lot of blanks but still pay more than off those DPs you spent learning them if you really want to have that sort of elemental spell.
I played an archmage with the Plasma Ways list once and that definitely was a lot of fun as a player but from a GM's point of view also definitely TOO powerful.

[thrud]

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. I'll try and address the issues one by one.
1. Darkness - I don't like darkness as an element, it feels silly to me. To much physics in school I think?
Dark fire is more appealing to me, it's hard to explain but it has that magical quality that is so important.

2. Arioch has a nice idea, placing it under Black channel would work out nicely.

How about Lesser netherbolt using nether criticals and shockbolt table.
Lv4 Lesser netherbolt 100'
Lv9 Lesser netherbolt 300'
Lv14 Lesser netherbolt 500'

Netherbolt is placed under Black channels
Black channels I -> 100'
Black channels II -> 300'
Black channels III-> 500'

Bear in mind I am an archmage... thus I do have access to the arcane secrets.

And I wouldn't mind squeezing in Nether Ball I on Lv12 and Nether ball II on Lv19.
What can I say... I like nether. And really, it would be far less work to just learn Nether Mastery the spell list. Now I'll have to sacrifice years of study to perform the research. Going up 1Lv is much easier than spending years and years on research.

To quote elemental companion (p.8 ) The pure element of destruction

[PiXeL01]

The critical table for nether (disruption) is a little over the top imho, which might be why few people are allowing access to it. Why is why I would go with munchy on this one as well. Let nether stay on Nether Law. I just briefly skimmed the table again and every other or third crit on A gives the foe a -50 penalty.

In Companion III it states that nether is very hard to master which is why it depends x3 development costs to learn. Also in Elemental Companion the outlook on the element itself is Passive. (My description of Nether is on page 13, and I cant find your quote for it).
But to twist everything into another direction. Black Channels is channeling so it depends on the outlook of the God in question and your character. You say you are bend on WORLD DOMINATION (insert echo, echo, echo), but who would rule in a place where everything is disrupted? Endless fields of nothing as Nether has been used in the area too much. Also the dangers in it. You miss with a bolt or ball and you remove about half a wall if not more. Also which god would use it?
The idea of Nether Bolts as Black Channels Spells instead of other options is fine for balance, as it keep the element out of the lower levels. So if you want your lower level attack spells use Dark Fire (cold, electricity, impact). That would also help your inexperienced GM. Or have it your way but then remember to tell the GM to send Plasma wielders your way.

Sure you have access to the Arcane Secrets, if you can find the lore or a master to teach you. In other words up to the GM.
Bring your suggestion to your GM and then let him read Nether Law and the Disruption Crit Table before making his judgement. Or ask for a wand firing Lesser Nether Bolts with limited Charges so he can see the effect of Nether before allowing it.
Last you might want to look at Nether Law again to see where they have place their spells. Their first Ball is 13, while the second one is 20. You should keep them at the same lvl if not higher (which would be prefered).

[thrud]

Oki, fair enough.
I'm sure I could get my will (somehow) if I wanted to but in the end it's all about having fun. To much power at to low a level is just disruptive to the game and not so much fun. There is no point in being much more powerful than the other players. It'll only breed envy and they become lazy. Better for everyone to be equals fighting for a common goal. Balance is good.
I looked in "Fire and Ice" RMFRP...

Worst thing ever was having a player with "blessed by wargod" talent. Full plate and a big weapon, just point in the right direction and let the mayhem begin. Not so funny for the rest of the group.

[Arioch]

I looked in "Fire and Ice" RMFRP...

I think that Nether in F&I got a little bit toned down in comparison to RM2 version

[munchy]

Right, I would still object to the usage of nether criticals as they are of course way more dangerous than electricity criticals which the normal shockbolt would use. You would have a bolt that is easy to get your hands on level-wise but which has a horrible destructive force behind it. That seems unfair compared to people learning the normal shockbolt and having to be content with those more or less lame electricity crits.
So, I am not convinced, even not by that archmage-argument as it only supports the idea that the character should then, if he has that famed access to arcane knowledge, simply learn the nether law list if he wants to have those spell so badly. This is what the list is for and learning the list does not only mean attack spells to fire away at will but also some sort of effort going into understanding how the "element" works. An archmage is supposed to be a learned character, not someone who dabbles in magic using only what he wants and needs. IMHO it is a profession that has a way more scholarly outlook than the magician for example. This, however, as I admitted before is the result from my own experience where we handled things differently which at times was not only way to powerful for the situations we were confronted with but also quite frustrating for the other players at the table, which at times then ruined the game for them. And that IMHO is something you really DON'T want to happen.

So, no nether outside the nether law table from me as a GM with some experience in a similar matter. The way you propose it, is in my opinion WAY too powerful.

[thrud]

Ok, now I have a better understanding of the general feelings about nether. Time to have a little chat with the GM.

[Balhirath]

I would like to add Nether bolts to the list. 
Yeah, I know... crazy. Right?

How about:
Lv4 - Minor Nether bolt, use shock bolt table with nether crits
Lv9 - Nether bolt, 100' range
Lv14 - 300' range
Lv19 - 500' range

So, this a purly selfish thing since I'll be doing the research but I want to keep it within reason. To powerful too soon and it's no fun.
Thus Id like to hear your take on the issue.
Is it a fair interpretation using nether as a physical manifistation of channeling the wrath of a dark god? I find no better element?
Are the levels ok?
Personally I would rather have used Lv 10,15 and 20 but they are already taken.

What say you?
It's because of the inexperienced GM that I'm asking.

hmm I love magic and I would not allow that.
First of all what you suggest is being able to cast a complex element using Channeling magic. Please remember that if you place those spells in a channeling spell list you are actually converting the spells in question from Arcane to Channeling.. and there is no way I would allow that AND make you able to cast those spells at a lower level than the original Arcane list!
There is at least one thing that you must be aware of and have to make the new GM aware of: Once the spells are converted, other channeling users are able to use those spells as well. If your character can channel nether from his god, so can every other priest with that spell list, since it IS a channel from the god.

Personally I think that Nether should not be allowed (I dont use it either) and especially not as a Channeling spell. Darkness have been suggested and that might work out fin, though I think that you might not find them 'special' enough.. ( I can relate to that )

[thrud]

Lol, actually the channeling spells are converted to arcane (triple hybrid) ...
And the list only changes fo me as the reseacher and those I teach it to. You may rule this different because of your view of channeling.
But, I can understand why you wouldn't allow it.

If I were to pick it appart there are a few points of interest.
- All the spells are quick on that list
- As suggested, a black channel is quick and would enable the caster of casting the spell once per round at Lv10. It would take a Lv 16 mage using Nether law to cast Nether Bolt once per round without a esf roll.
- Nether is an arcane element which makes it tricky to adapt into an existing list
- Disruption criticals are way too cool to hand out to a player 

Maybe placing it at Lv12 would offset som of the issues?
- You have to use a "D" pick to learn that portion of the list
- It takes a long time to reseach
- More PP's are used
- You can't start developing the directed spells skill until Lv12
- Honestly... how often do you get lv12 pcs?

Now, humor me.
At what Lv do you think a Shockbolt with disruption criticals would work out ok?

I realise I might be beating a dead horse here but I'm curious.

[Temujin]

Now, humor me.
At what Lv do you think a Shockbolt with disruption criticals would work out ok?

On a Nether oriented Base Arcane List, lvl 4 or 5.  On a non-Nether oriented list, regardless of whether its base, closed or open, I simply wouldn't allow it.

For that matter, I wouldn't allow a bolt on a "Dark Channels" list, since it doesn't fit the theme.  Curses, etc. on the other hand...

[PiXeL01]

I would push it up to 5, maybe 6, given it is disruption. I am not saying dont hand out Plasma or Nether, but go it in a controlled way as in through the standard lists. This, as noted above, allows the development of the control of the element to go through a "natural" evolution. And the price would stay at x2 for Plasma and x3 for Nether as suggestion in Companion III. I cant remember how Elemental Companion handles the costs for Complex elements, but I hope that would be the same. (Dont have my book at hand atm). Also I would never reduce the original spell level. The spells would placed there for a reason.

Another thing, if your Dark Channels list is turned into Arcane and you are not receiving aid from a god, the all your Black Channels spells and other spell which should require the finger or attention of a God, should be stripped. If you are not a follower, then no you cant do this. (face smelting and so forth)

Last thing, depending on how you see an Arch Mage, he isnt a Pure Arcane, but a three realm Hybrid. He is still bound by all the rules of each realm and the lists he casts his spells from doesnt change into that three realm combination, but stay the same. Other hybrid users have their own set of lists which are combined, but with the Archmage it isnt so. (Well of course it could be houseruled that all spells cast by a user are of his realm, but that is up to the GMs ruling I would guess)

On SA costs. Normally lets say you use 5 ranks in Dark Channels to B and 5 to get D. For the Arch Mage that is a total cost of 20 Dps, right? Now if you had to do the same for Nether Mastery the Price tag would be 30 for pick B and 30 for Pick D and staggering 60 Dps, but then you have your ball spell as well. The first bolt would 10 (how many to you see of those).

Why not just make an Elemental user and choose Nether as your focus element? Then you get your first nether bolts alot faster, alot cheaper and the GM cant really object to it.