Topic: Sequence of Multiple Attacks in RMC

[twh]

I thought for sure I'd find this question already asked and answered but my search turned up nothing.

For a character making two attacks per round, either with two-weapon combo or Adrenal Speed, when do the individual attacks occur?  Both at the same time, at the character's initiative?  One at his initiative and the second at the end of the round?  Something else?

Also, I see no TWC skill in RMC so I assume the only skills required are the individual weapon skills (for each hand).

And, on another note, I included Adrenal Quick Draw as a skill in my campaign because I read it somewhere, and now I can not find any reference to it in any RMC book.  Am I imagining what I thought I read or is it there and I've missed it?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Adrenal Quick Draw was a RM2 skill from one of the companions.

With Adrenal Speed and Haste, you either resolve it as the character having 200% activity instead of the normal 100%, or as having his actions take half of their normal activity (I would suggest the former).

A character is normally only allowed to make 1 attack each round, even if he does have a weapon in each hand. The non-attacking weapon may be used as a shielding device (see the table on RMC Arms Law page 14).

If you want multiple attacks per round, you need something like Haste or Adrenal Speed, or you need to introduce a skill for TWC, or you need to use the Style Creation rules  from Combat Companion.

As for resolving multiple attacks. That is simple and is easily handled within the rules. Just refer to Step 3B: Resolving Long Actions on page 27 of RMC Arms Law.

Multiple Attacks require 90-100% activity. Unless you break the round down into more than just 2 Steps (Short Actions and Long), you cycle through init and resolve actions. Then you cycle through it again to catch those with any remaining activity or actions.

SO.... First time through init, you resolve the first attack. Second time through, you resolve the second attack (along with anybody else who has any activity or actions left over). Also see the Combat example on page 34 (even though there is no second attack, it does give an example of that second cycle through init).

[twh]

A character is normally only allowed to make 1 attack each round, even if he does have a weapon in each hand. The non-attacking weapon may be used as a shielding device (see the table on RMC Arms Law page 14).

I see your point about multiple attacks per round, but AL p19 says the following in the description of using Two One-Handed Weapons:
     ? The combatant may attack with both weapons in the same round, or
     they may attack with only one and use the other for its ?shield? bonus versus
     melee (see Table 02-04). (In which case use the ?One-Handed Weapons with a
     Shield? rules above)
     ? A combatant must direct both their attacks (and parry) against the same target.

So now I'm a little confused.

As for the Adrenal Quick Draw, you're right, it was easy to remember it was in one of the Companions once you reminded me of it.

[Marc R]

With two weapon combat I'd resolve the two attack rolls on the single target simultaniously. . .The actions are not "Attack left hand" then "Attack right hand" it's "Attack with both weapons". . .remember that an "attack" is a sequence of moves and swings that add up to one roll, taking 5-10 seconds, not just one swing.

If they resolved seperately, you'd be able to pull the "Full DB first attack" then "Full OB second attack". . .it's a combined, complex action, which requires two rolls, but is only one attack action.

[twh]

Even if the individual attack rolls were made at different points in the round they would still follow the rest of the description in AL.  Specifically, any parry affects both OBs, so there would be no tricks with having one's cake and eating it, too.

I can see both points of view (which is why I asked).  It's a single combo attack, therefore both rolls are made at the same point in the round.  But, that same single combo attack takes place over the course of the entire round, so I can also see making the individual attack rolls at different points.

The more I think about it, it does seem like a bit of a cheat--getting two attacks like that--but on the other hand such a character does not get the bonus of using a shield.  He must either expend OB from both weapons to parry, or shift to a single-weapon stance and take the pitiful shield bonus for a single-handed weapon.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

A character is normally only allowed to make 1 attack each round, even if he does have a weapon in each hand. The non-attacking weapon may be used as a shielding device (see the table on RMC Arms Law page 14).

I see your point about multiple attacks per round, but AL p19 says the following in the description of using Two One-Handed Weapons:
     â€¢ The combatant may attack with both weapons in the same round, or
     they may attack with only one and use the other for its “shield” bonus versus
     melee (see Table 02-04). (In which case use the “One-Handed Weapons with a
     Shield” rules above)
     â€¢ A combatant must direct both their attacks (and parry) against the same target.

So now I'm a little confused.

Simple -- I forgot about that section -- plus you will notice that my answer was not in navy blue -- which means that I was answering as me, not making an official answer (because I didn't read all the possible rules on it before replying). 

Anyways, what I said above, regarding initiative and activity percentage remains unchanged. It was the note on page 26 (above the Activity Percentage Table) that caused my earlier comment about only 1 attack action (TWC would be considered to be 1 attack action, and that is why it is listed the way it is on that table).

With two weapon combat I'd resolve the two attack rolls on the single target simultaniously. . .The actions are not "Attack left hand" then "Attack right hand" it's "Attack with both weapons". . .remember that an "attack" is a sequence of moves and swings that add up to one roll, taking 5-10 seconds, not just one swing.

If they resolved seperately, you'd be able to pull the "Full DB first attack" then "Full OB second attack". . .it's a combined, complex action, which requires two rolls, but is only one attack action.

It is 2 separate attack rolls, but it is considered 1 attack action on the Activity Percentage Table (RMC Arms Law, pg 26). Your first paragraph suggests 1 single roll for both attacks, and that is incorrect. One of its bullet points specifically says "both attacks" which indicates 2 rolls.

And the section that twh pointed out also specifically says that both OB values are reduced when one parries, and that the parry amounts do not stack. Which makes the situation you postulate in the second paragraph a bit of an impossibility.


From the rules on page 19, yes, you can make multiple attacks in a round so long as you have skill in the weapon(s) for the hand in which it is being used (i.e. you need to learn sword (right hand) and dagger (left hand), and dagger (left hand) is a different skill than dagger (right hand)).

So, if you have an ob of 70 for Short Sword (right hand) and an OB of 30 for Dagger (left hand), your OB for making 2 attacks in a round would be 70 Short Sword and 10 Dagger (-20 for off hand if you had not already applied that modifier -- and for the purposes of this example, we will presume that you hadn't), and you would receive a -5 modifier to your initiative rolls.

If you wanted to put 20 points into DB from parrying. You would then have an OB of 50 Short Sword and -10 Dagger and get a total of 20 points added to DB because the OB-to-DB shift affected both weapons equally -- however there is no rule that says you are limited by the lesser OB (makes a nice house rule though, plus it is how the TWC skill in RM2 and RMFRP works).

So....

To answer the original questions again

1) No, you do not need a special skill, only skill with the weapons, in the hands in which they are to be used (and each hand is a separate skill!!)

2) To Resolve them, refer to Step 3B - and resolve the main attack in the first initiative cycle of step 3b and the second in the second cycle.

3) if using Adrenal Speed or Haste, I recommend treating them as an additional 100% activity (not halving existing activity percentages, and then using extra initiative cycles to resolve the additional actions that are allowed.

[Marc R]

um, OK. . .I've never felt so beaten up from being agreed with before. . .heheh.

I concur that it's one action, that's what I said. . .if it were two seperate actions you could do the Full OB/Full DB thing. . .which is precicely what you can do with haste or speed effects. . .make a full DB declaration, then a full OB declaration in the two seperate attack actions. . .which is a nasty combination.

I house rule the 1/2 activity per action for haste, rather than +100% activity for a few reasons, the biggest being people who: "I declare Full parry" then after the 100% activity round is over, and they're usually the only one left with activity "I declare full Attack". . .

After having a player abuse that one for a string of sessions, I went with the "Haste cuts the length of all actions in half" rule.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Addendum -- The default is 2 Steps, resolve short actions and then resolve long actions. However, the option is also offeret to break it into 4 steps. If you do this (or any other number of steps), I would ste the completion percentages of the attacks at 65-75% (for primary attack) and 90-100% (for the secondary attack), which is essentially splitting the difference between the 50-100% for a single attack and the 90-100% for multiple attacks.

Another thing to note -- the 90-100% range was given to allow a character to make up to a 10% move and still attack (hence the ranges I gave above).

[twh]

Cool beans, that clears it up.  Thanks, guys.

[vroomfogle]

Note that in RMC you can attack twice without being hasted by making two 50% attack actions, each at -50, since a melee attack is a 50%-100% action.

Both attacks in this case would be Long Actions, with the first 50% action being resolved in normal initiative order, and the second one resolved after everyone has completed an action (and then in init order).

RMSS solved the full DB/OB issue with a simple rule - parrying reduces your OB for any and all attacks that round, so you don't have to get into semantics as to whether or not it's one action yet two attacks, or two actions, etc.

In terms of resolving actions, Haste should cut time in half (IMO), thereby allowing normally long actions to be resolved as short actions.

[Voriig Kye]

I've houseruled (is that a verb ) that any attack after the first (be it from haste, TWC, etc.) occur at the end of the turn. This is mainly to reduce its appeal, since I don't want every mage to learn haste and every warrior to use TWC. I think I got that rule from White Wolf's World of Darkness

[PiXeL01]

No, you can still only make one attack on RMC even though the activity procentages are set to 50-100 for melee attacks. There is a note over the activity table in RMC Arms Law pp 26.

And on houseruling when in a round the attack rolls occur, I actually think many have splitted it up like that. For hasted combatants wielding one weapon, multiattack MAs and TWC users I place the first on initiative and the second at the end of the round, while hasted monks and TWC users get two in initiative and the other two at the end of the round (splitting the number of attacks evenly).

If more people are hasting, AD speeding and TWC`ing you could give them all one attack each in order of initiative until all attacks have occurred.

[Marc R]

My problem with sequencing multiple attacks often revolves around "What is your DB at this moment?"

Not much of a problem with TWC since the split must remain constant, but it opens up a chease angle for speed/haste.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

My problem with sequencing multiple attacks often revolves around "What is your DB at this moment?"

Not much of a problem with TWC since the split must remain constant, but it opens up a chease angle for speed/haste.

Remember -- parrying is the act of fighting more defensively, and the way the tactical system works, you are declaring your parry (and the degree to which you are parrying) before the round begins and for the entire round.

To me, this says that if you deciding to move 50 points of OB into DB, it doesn't matter how many attacks you get, you have to subtract 50 from ALL attacks during the round because your declared actions for the round are based upon you spending the round fighting more defensively overall.

This way it keeps it simple.

[PiXeL01]

That is the same I have interpreted it as well. Just because you have twice the number of attacks or 200% activity (or rarely more) that doesnt mean you have more phases to act on. You still only have one declaretion phased, though that can get a little mixed up with 200% character.
"ok, I charge the gremlim!"
"ok, you gut him, what now"
"Guess I will club the next in the line of 50 then"
"ok, here are your additional penalties, defensive split stays the same".

[Marc R]

You declare your OB/DB split when you declare an attack. .if you just double attack one target, or two adjacent targets, it does make some sense to use the same split, but what if you:

attack at 80%, then move 40% then attack at 80%. . .

or

Attack at 80%, drop and draw for 40% and attack with a totally different weapon for 80%

the two attack sequences are totally seperated, one by movement, the other by completely dropping out of combat posture, swapping weapons, and going back into combat posture. In the second example, you'd have no ready weapon and no parry at all during that middle swap weapons action, so carrying the same combat posture across both attacks doesn't fit the way it does for TWC.

The trickiness also comes down to rates of movement.

If 2 characters of the same race and height have 100 QU, but one of them is hasted.

Both run for 25% action, attack for 50% action, then run for the remainder of the round.

Technically, with the hasted character having 200% movement rather than halving the cost of all actions, they will run the same distance in 25%. . .but then at the end of the round the normal runs for 25% action and the hasted for 125%.

This is another annoyance I've seen. Parry at 100%, then run away for 100%. . .it's more an attempt to loophole the rules so you can run when the foe is out of action and can't cut you down at all. . .

Observing the action as it goes, everyone seems to move at the same speed, then every 10 seconds, between rounds the hasted participants zip around and execute an extra round of activity between rounds. Using the 1/2 method, all participant's actions fit into the same basic frame, hasted people don't "blink ahead" a full round of 100% action effectively between rounds.

That's essentially how haste, as is, works, other than the restriction of "Only one spell may be cast per round" and durations it effectively works as "Normal people act in every odd round, while hasted people act in odd and even rounds."

I understand the logic behind the rule, it tones down the effects of haste considerably, but it seems to create some bits of illogic, which can be exploited.