Topic: Stalking for an Elf (and Half Elf)

[Marc R]

That #4 bugs me, but I can't put my finger on it.

Like, if someone has zero ranks in riding, you can stick them on a horse with stirrups, tell them to hold on, and as long as you move really slow (no stress situation) they don't fall off. . .

But you wouldn't allow someone to just relax and then be able to read french with no ranks.

I guess what bothers me there is that reading french is something done, while riding a horse in the "no stress" manner above is passive. . .you're not riding, you're "Holding on".

I guess then it depends on if "Meditation" is an action or not. . .my opinion would be that it seems that you can "actively" meditate, the passive version is either "Sleeping" or "Doing nothing". (Sitting and staring blankly at the wall is not meditation.)

As a for instance, I wouldn't let a human player meditate at will with no ranks. shrug. . .that's definitely off into GM interpretation land though.

[Dirz]

Sorry, but going back to my question:

In Hide, there is SD as a stat, how shall I handle the -20 for elves and -10 for Half Elves? Are they easyer to detect?

As someone noted above, if I get this rule ... my PCs will have Elves "moving a little bit" in the shadows, instead of Hiding.

But considering the -20 as a +20 on this skill, will unbalance too much my game?

Tnks

[Marc R]

The logic, as is, is intended that the elves lack the discipline to stand still and quiet, so get a penalty. . .if you give them the RoCo bonus, then it offsets, or even offers a bonus to the mod. . .

On the flip side. . .you could just tell elves who want to be sneaky to just buy loads of stalk/hide. 4 ranks is the same as the hide penalty. . .and over time they will become pretty good at hiding. . .and 40 points better at stalking. . .I've found that elvish characters told to "suck it up" over the SD penalty tend to push hard to rank up their Stalk/Hide to overcome that handicap, and in the process of becoming good at hiding, they become masters of stalking.

[Dirz]

ok, fine for stalk/Hide ... and for meditation? the rules in RMC page 93 states:
"Meditation: (Pr/SD) Bonus for entering,
leaving, and exploiting meditative
trances. Each hour of uninterrupted
meditation equals two hours sleep.
Once in trance, one is normally oblivious
to outside activity. Physical prodding
allows one to make a static maneuver
to leave trance, as does a painful
strike (modify by +25). Elves get an
additional +25 modification to this
skill bonus."
This means that the add the SD with the -20 from race, but in the end they have a +25 to the total skill bonus, right?

And what about Half elves? will I have to add at least a +10 bonus?

[yammahoper]

Honestly, they do not deserve any special bonus.  They have a negative Sd mod for a reason, and if players want to be a sneaky elf, which is a handy thing since their Sd mod is the ONLY negative to playing an elf, then they should be forced to buy talents that make them sneaky and subtle, such as a Sd mod bonus, or a talent that provides a bonus to stalking and hiding.

Or, just redo the stat mods to suit your vision of how elves should be.  +20 to everything will make players jump for joy.

 

lynn

[Balhirath]

Sorry, but going back to my question:

In Hide, there is SD as a stat, how shall I handle the -20 for elves and -10 for Half Elves? Are they easyer to detect?

As someone noted above, if I get this rule ... my PCs will have Elves "moving a little bit" in the shadows, instead of Hiding.

But considering the -20 as a +20 on this skill, will unbalance too much my game?

Tnks

This actually depend a lot on your world and what role the elves play in it.
(which is pretty much what ICE people mean when they say that it is up to the GM )
If your view on elves are that they are very good at stalking then by all means give the +20 bonus instead of the -20. However I suggest that you  give them a special +20 bonus to Stalk/hide in woodland areas instead.
It will make them better at stalking, but only in woodlands, which will limit the use and stop it from being too unbalancing.

[Dax]

Stalk & Hide

As someone noted above, if I get this rule ... my PCs will have Elves "moving a little bit" in the shadows, instead of Hiding.

If someone is looking at you you have to freeze; a motion is easier to recognize. "To move a little bit" means a higher difficulty and IMO the use of the same skill: Hiding. Stalking is for move silently therefore Agility is used.

Take a look at the skill list which skill to use SD as a stat. You find there even Fletching, that means humans are better in arrow making than elves.
With Stalk&Hide it becomes obvious that the -20 to SD makes the elves not what they used to be (Sneaky and hard to spot). The solution would be to give them a bonus like other suggest or turn the penalty to the same amount of bonus.

Why is there the -20 to SD ?
This penalty represents the lack of focus from which elves suffer. Their toughts are just wandering off during doing things.
It would be better to role play it, but even the best role player might fail.
"Look at the ants. They are carrying things. Where are they going ? Let us see."
"Ssss, Legolas stay in cover !"

Would you like to have the Half-Elves be better in Stalk&Hide than normal humans ?
Turn the malus into a bonus (same amount).

But what about the other skills ...
But perhaps there is no need for a solution, because elves live forever so they could learn forever ...

[Dax]

Back to Off-Topic: Meditation.

We do have to different points of view:

"Elves meditate automatically" vs "Elves need skill success to meditate".

Conterdicting points are often both true and here it is the same:

Of course Elves meditate instead of sleep. With or without the skill they wander through her memories to regenerate.

I repeat the skill description:
blabla* Each hour of uninterrupted meditation equals two hours sleep. blabla*

If the skill roll fails the normal sleeping duration is needed, but only as meditation.

Both points of view are true !

OK, and now something for the elves haters:
1) Their sleep is in any way a (kind of) meditation. The awakening period might be always longer than those of normal sleepers.
2) Elves love to wander their memories (to meditate), so they disdain the (normal) meditation skill to reduce the length of their "sleep".
3) Elves use the meditation skill to wander their beloved memories. What memories might surface if they fail their skill roll ? Would that be good for the needed regeneration ?

___

* "blabla" is not ment disrespectfully to RM, ICE, the designers or the RMC Team; it is only there as an abbreviation.

[PiXeL01]

You could argue that due to their extended life spand Elves are able to master any skill even those based on SD. Rolemaster Companion comes with another suggestion concerning Elves and their lack of focus. Still on pp 47 it is stated that either the GM or the Character can choose a couple of SD based skills that are his Burning Interest, which either merely removes the malus or turns it into a positive modifier. I would state that the player have to have some fairly good arguments for the skills their choose as their Burning interest.
As for elves and meditation I would reckon that is a setting`s issue, which should be handle according to the setting in question. Dax comes up with some good points though.

[Marc R]

I see what Dirz is asking, I think. It's an order of math issue, and if it supercedes.

My reading of it would be:

-20 racial stat bonus +25 racial skill bonus = +5 to that skill

neither modifier superceeds the other, they just both apply, the end result being that the penalty is swamped.

Keep in mind that if you word it "+25 to stalk/hide skill" then it applies on both sides.

So while the elf only gets -20+25=+5 to hiding, their stalk ends up getting a double bonus. . . .

A lot of these "It makes common sense" fiddles tend to cover over flaws characters have due to the system mechanics. . .this way lie dragons. . .grab bag skill bonuses, similar skills, and all sorts of those kinds of problem areas.

if your character's background/culture likes to sneak. . . .then purchase ranks in stalk/hide in adolecence and apprenticeship. . .your amazon tribesman is not racially a better hunter than a suburban computer engineer, he has more ranks in hunting applicable skills. . .the same should apply to non human races. All these tweaks and mods are variations on the theme of "Can I have something for nothing?". . . .players are always mumbling that, but I find that GMing it's best to make them work for everything, then they cherish it more, and have more fun, rather than getting bored, or attacking each other since none of the NPCs can challenge them anymore.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Sorry, but going back to my question:

In Hide, there is SD as a stat, how shall I handle the -20 for elves and -10 for Half Elves? Are they easyer to detect?

As someone noted above, if I get this rule ... my PCs will have Elves "moving a little bit" in the shadows, instead of Hiding.

But considering the -20 as a +20 on this skill, will unbalance too much my game?

Tnks

The Sd penalty is there to reflect an apparent "lack of focus", one of the reasons that immortal elves do not completely dominante the campaigns that they are in. It also explains why an adolecent elf starts the game at 50+ years old and only has the same aount of xp as a starting 16 year old human. I call it game balance...however... logically it also makes a great deal of sence.

If you are immortal whats the hurry? When you have that mind set, it's not unreasonable to have a SD bonus...

Except, there are occasions where the blanket -20 SD penalty does seem a little harsh. What could be done is simply allow the Elf to "focus" for a specific SHORT period of time (perhaps a couple of rounds) . During this period the -20 applies to all other actions as the Elf struggles to overcome thier innate enertia.

This way the penalty still stands but gets moved elsewhere. The longer the elf attempts the task the more of the penalty applies to the focused action and less applies to the other actions.

I find it hard to believe that the laid back approach of an Elf would apply in a situation where real danger is apparent.

EG: Elf hiding in bushes from 20 Trolls. "Ohh look a pretty butterfly!" and stands up to have a look...

[dutch206]

Or, you could burn a background option to purchase "+10 to a primary skill", which would help offset the SD penalty. 

Honestly, people have been debating this topic for the last twenty years, so don't feel bad for being confused, Dirz.

[Dirz]

Ok, I understand what you all mean.

It's up to the GM ... but you are right ... -20 at hiding is not a terrific malus.

Let's consider a wood elf (the best one for hiding, in my opinion):
not considering bonus from stats temp value, it will have a total mod to HIDE of -5 ... nothing so terrible to overrun!

You are right, as from stats, Half Elves (but also Elves) are already good choises ... converting theyr only malus in a bonus is probably too much.

Thank you all for the help you gave me in getting an idea on how to handle the "elves-affair".

[Dark Mistress]

Just to chime in. I honestly always found the elves in RM having a -20 to SD to be contradictory to them being able to sit still for long periods of time and meditate. I mean if their mind wanders and they have trouble sitting style how can they meditate instead of sleep? just seems weird to me.

For me I always removed the SD penality and replaced it with other things. Like you could give them the absent minded flaw from RMFRP character law is it seems to fit the reason of the low SD, just as a example.

But I tweak and change races to fit each game world I run in.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

..a -20 to SD to be contradictory to them being able to sit still for long periods of time and meditate. I mean if their mind wanders and they have trouble sitting style how can they meditate instead of sleep? just seems weird to me.

Again, it all depends on what exactly are the mechanics of sleeping (or the elven equivilent) are.. as far as I can tell, there isn't a stat that governs going to sleep (or a skill for that matter).. it could be that it is SD, and the elves with their poor SD bonus, can't concentrate long enough for them to close their eyes to go to sleep!!!

That leaves them Meditation... which even with a penalty is a skill which they can at least train in.
(I personally feel that the elven ability to meditate instead of sleep is a racial ability, not dictated by skill, in much the same manner creatures with darkvision can see in the dark..)

Perhaps all elves are just insomniacs.

[Marc R]

that would explain the drifting attention. . . .and those occasional really surly elves.

I agree with DM, at campaign generation, I tend to fiddle my races anyhoo.

[vroomfogle]

The idea is that elves have a hard time focusing but I agree with Grinnen above, that it's should be more of long-term focus they have a problem with rather then short term.   Short term focus would make them very poor at doing...well anything really.   The SD penalty just doesn't seem to fit.   

I hate to say it but what is really a better fit is more like an Experience penalty.   This slows down elves from leveling and represents that they take longer to learn things.

However, in a campaign situation this generally stinks for any elf players.   So I view the elven focus/leveling issue as more intermittent.   In the short term I ignore it and they are treated like everyone else.  But elves will tend to go through long periods of 'downtime', where they don't advance at all.   

Logically I prefer the experience penalty, but practically I prefer the second explanation which allows you to ignore the issue entirely.  Admittedly it's a bit of a cop-out.

[Dark Mistress]

Perhaps in the future ICE can come up with a rule like a flaw but something that just effects elves that would work and help balance them. What that might be I have no idea. I am not a game designer and if I had a good idea I thought would work i would post it. But I think that in the long run might be the best answer.

Of course there is nothing stopping us in this forum that feel this way to brain storm and come up with such a flaw to replace the -20SD with in our own games.

[Marc R]

The RLO concept in CT could work. It's essentially an "Experience penalty" akin to what vroom was talking about.

[vroomfogle]

I need to go back and read that again.   I know we talked about several options during CT.   Mechanically I do think an experience penalty, or a DP penalty per level is the best solution.