Topic: RMC character creation questions

[Carnus]

Hi

I just got my RMC books and was testing out character creation with my wife and had a few questions come up.
I played a little RM2 years back and remember that casters used to start with a set ammount of spell lists.

So far in RMC I cant seem to find that. So in RMC do characters just spend development points to attempt to learn a list at character creation? and if thats the case does that mean that a 1st level character who spent most if not all their points on lists could learn 4 lists max (2 in adolesenance if they spent 20 ranks on one and rolled well on the other and another two in apprenticeship if they did the same)?

Also are 1st level chaacters in RMC playable? I remember that RM2 would recommend that characters start at 5th?

Thanks

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

It is actually covered much better in Spell Law....

But the basics is....

For each rank purchased in a list, you get a +5. You then roll, and if the total is over 100, you learn the portion of the list you were trying to learn.

If you put 20 ranks in a list, then you basically don't need to roll, and can learn a second lists.

Off the top of my head, I think 2 is the max you can learn per level. (and yes, that means learning 2 lists during adol. and two at apprenticeship).

Now, RMC Spell Law includes some different options, for example, one option is the option used in RMX. Spell List Aquisition costs for Pure and Hybrids are doubled (to 2/* -- Semis and Non costs remain the same) and characters purchase each rank in the list that they want to learn (i.e. buy 5 ranks, and you know the list to fifth level). Using this option, the character may purchase spells from up to 5 lists per level (IIRC, they can llearn more than that, but at higher costs -- in the RMC Spell Law option, not the RMX variant, which used just the basics of the option).

If you use some of the options from RMX, yes, first level characters can be very playable.

The two main options being

1) Base PP from RMC Spell Law, this gives a 1st level character approximately 10 extra PP to start off with.

2) Alternate Body Dev -- This RMX option starts a character off with 20% of their racial max on hit points, and then each rank adds 1/2 of the hit die type plus 1 (i.e. a hit die of d10 gives +6 hits per rank), and Con stat bonus is a straight add to hits (and the Con Bonus can put hits over the racial max, but hits from ranks cannot).

[Justin]

If you put 20 ranks in a list, then you basically don't need to roll, and can learn a second lists.

Off the top of my head, I think 2 is the max you can learn per level. (and yes, that means learning 2 lists during adol. and two at apprenticeship).

1 - Actually possibly less than 20 ranks, because your primary magic stat also got figured in to the bonus, and since you have to have at least a +10 from your temporary, that probably canceled 2 ranks.

2 - To my recollection, no, you are restricted to studying one list at a time. I suppose if you had the DP to perfect a list and then some all in one lvl, the GM would say you were studying only 1 list at a time but still allow 2 to be gained upon leveling.
The individual spell development sure does make that easier, and more rewarding to the players. I'm running with that option for the first time.

[PiXeL01]

1 Actually adding Realm Stat Bonus to a Spell List develment rolls is an option, not a core rule.

2 according to the rules you can place development points in two list pr lvl, but ONLY if you reach 100% in the first list. So if you place as adolescent place 20 ranks in 1 list, you are allowed to place ranks in another list, you just dont gain a spell gain roll for it until level 1. So basically you are only allow to gain one list pr level.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

1 - Actually possibly less than 20 ranks, because your primary magic stat also got figured in to the bonus, and since you have to have at least a +10 from your temporary, that probably canceled 2 ranks.

As Pixel01 points out, that is an option, not part of the core rules.

2 - To my recollection, no, you are restricted to studying one list at a time. I suppose if you had the DP to perfect a list and then some all in one lvl, the GM would say you were studying only 1 list at a time but still allow 2 to be gained upon leveling.

2 according to the rules you can place development points in two list pr lvl, but ONLY if you reach 100% in the first list. So if you place as adolescent place 20 ranks in 1 list, you are allowed to place ranks in another list, you just dont gain a spell gain roll for it until level 1. So basically you are only allow to gain one list pr level.

Not quite accurate - the following is what the core rules are/mean.
 

Core Rules

• You may only learn one portion of a list at a time.
  
  
• If your first attempt in a given level is successful, you may attempt to learn a second spell list portion (on a different list, or a higher portion of the list just learned). The core rules do not put any limitations on the number of ranks that must be purchased to allow this.
  
  
• If your first attempt in a given level is unsuccessful, you may attempt to learn a second (different) spell list portion (on a different list than the first, but doing so loses the ranks in the first spell list portion attempted.
  
  
• If you first attempt is unsuccessful, you may purchase more ranks in the same portion, but only if you can bring your total up to 20 ranks, which means you may learn the list automatically.
  
  
• If you purchase 20 ranks in a list, you automatically learn that portion of the spell list (no roll required), and may start purchasing ranks on a second list portion.
  
  
• Although it is not explicitly and clearly stated in the rule, a character may only purchase ranks in 2 different list portions per level. The core rules do say that only one list may be learned, and then it says that there is an exception. However, the way that the exceptions are worded, the character is allowed to attempt to learn a second list portion regardless of the outcome of the attempt to learn the first list portion.
  
  
• Each block of development points is considered a separate "level" for the purpose of learning spell lists. Just as each block of development points also counts separately for how many ranks may be purchased in a given skill. This means that Adolescent and Apprenticeship are fully considered to be separate levels for the learning of spell lists.
  
  

[Marc R]

I think your 2nd bullet point is mistaken:

If your first attempt in a given level is successful, you may attempt to learn a second spell list portion (on a different list, or a higher portion of the list just learned). The core rules do not put any limitations on the number of ranks that must be purchased to allow this.

Page 83 of CL, Rt Col 1st para, or P20 SL, lt col, 1st bullet point, seem pretty clear that the only exception to the "One and only one list pick attempt per level" in core is to auto buy the list out with 20 ranks, then begin spending ranks on the next pick.

It's re-affirmed in CL Option 14, in the first paragraph after the bullet points, where it says that even when stat bonus is allowed, you still need to buy 20 ranks to auto buy the first pick to be allowed to attempt a second list portion.

Unless you're making an official change to the rules in your official voice?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I think your 2nd bullet point is mistaken:

If your first attempt in a given level is successful, you may attempt to learn a second spell list portion (on a different list, or a higher portion of the list just learned). The core rules do not put any limitations on the number of ranks that must be purchased to allow this.

That specific paragraph fully implies that a second list may be learned if the attempt to learn a first list is successful, nor does it specifically mention required number of ranks.

Page 83 of CL, Rt Col 1st para, or P20 SL, lt col, 1st bullet point, seem pretty clear that the only exception to the "One and only one list pick attempt per level" in core is to auto buy the list out with 20 ranks, then begin spending ranks on the next pick.

It's re-affirmed in CL Option 14, in the first paragraph after the bullet points, where it says that even when stat bonus is allowed, you still need to buy 20 ranks to auto buy the first pick to be allowed to attempt a second list portion.

Unless you're making an official change to the rules in your official voice?

No, I didn't make a mistake, nor was I making a change to the official rules, I was only making an official interpretation of the existing rules as printed.

I went by the material published in RMC Spell Law (pages 19 & 20) for what I said officially above. Paraphrasing what is written on those 2 pages in my statement in an effort to make it clearer. The information used to write that particular bullet point that you quoted is from page 19 of RMC Spell Law, where the last full paragraph on that page says:

Once they have "learned" a portion of that list (i.e. made a successful Spell Gain Roll), their skill ranks in that list drop to zero. Then they may begin to develop skill ranks in another list or new skill ranks for  a higher-level portion of the same list.

This same paragraph can be found on page 83 of RMC Character Law, the second paragraph under the "Developing Skill Ranks for Spell Lists" header in the left hand column. The first paragraph in the right hand column is where it talks about purchasing 20 ranks, but it does not specify that it is the "exception" under which a second list may be learned. The exception could quite easily be construed as "successfully learning a list", and the paragraph that I mentioned earlier in this paragraph (and which is quoted above) comes right after the paragraph where the exception is mentioned (and it also says "see below for the one exception") while the 20 ranks paragraph is several paragraphs later (The same paragraph can be found directly above the one from Spell Law, page 19 as well).

Therefore, while it could conceivably be read/viewed either way, I read/interpreted it in the manner in which I posted. That is not "changing the rules", it is clarifying the existing rules because they are not fully clear and/or are perhaps even contradictory in some spots.

In further regards to page 83 of RMC Character Law. RMC Spell Law came out after RMC Character Law, and the rules in it (Spell Law), should and actually do have precedence over the same rules in RMC Character Law. Plus, when comparing the two sets of Spell List Acquisition rules, the RMC Character Law set can, and should, be considered to be an abbreviated version of the RMC Spell Law rules, especially since the top section of page 83 also refers the reader to Spell Law for more information and options.

Nor is it advisable to consider what is stated inside an option to be indicative of rules that are not explicitly stated. Plus, the way that the option is worded, it could be construed that that particular statement is made because the option makes it easier to learn spell lists -- which is acknowledged within that option's text.

In other words, it would not take a major stretch of the imagination for a  GM to take the wording of the option to mean "that since the option makes it easier to learn spells, that a second list should not be allowed unless 20 ranks in the first list is purchased".

To recap....

The ruling made above is not a mistake or a change in the official rules. It is an official interpretation of the printed/existing rules made on the basis of the text involved and the nature of the original question, a clarification.

[Marc R]

Once they have "learned" a portion of that list (i.e. made a successful Spell Gain Roll), their skill ranks in that list drop to zero. Then they may begin to develop skill ranks in another list or new skill ranks for  a higher-level portion of the same list.

If you double check the context of this quoted text, I'm pretty sure what it means is:

Once you "Make" a list, the ranks spent in it drop to zero. . .this was to prevent any confusion with issues like having 10 ranks in SLA "Fire Law" learning pick 1-10, then the next level purchasing 10 ranks in SLA "Fire Law" learning pick 11-20, you only have 10 ranks, not 10+10 from last level 20. hence the whole "Drops to zero ranks" reference.

That's laid out pretty explicity on SL page 20-21

A Successful Roll: Once a successful Spell Gain Roll is made, the character is considered to have learned the use of    the spells on the portion of the list that they were studying. They may then use those spells as long as such use complies with other rules for their use (power points, time  requirements, etc.). The number of skill ranks in that list is reduced to zero. The character may develop more skill ranks for that list, but they apply to learning a higher-level portion of the list.

In overall context, there is an "Order of actions" in level gain.

1) Earn enough experience to go up a level.
2) Make checks for stat gain.
3) Calculate DP based on new temp development stats from step 2.
4) Spend DP on ranks of skills
5) If using core SLA, make your SLA rolls.

Once you reach step 5, you have already spent all of your DP in step 4, so you cannot go back and buy more ranks of SLA (or anything else).

There's a specific, given exception to the rules, that if you purchase 20 ranks in a list, you automatically learn it without a roll, and may then spend ranks in another list, which you may then roll SLA in an attempt to learn that second pick.

Once you're at the stage of rolling, you have passed over the stage of purchasing ranks, should have no DP left, and cannot "Go back" to buy more of anything.

The text on Pg 83 of CL seems pretty clear and concrete on the issue, stating only one list per level in core, and that there is only one exception, listed below. If there is only "one" exception, and it's laid out as 20 ranks (with the two methods of possibly getting 20 ranks laid out in detail) that seems to exclude any other method.

If you allowed a successful roll, then go back and buy more ranks and try again, someone could buy 5 ranks, hope to get lucky, buy 5 more ranks, hope to get lucky, go back and buy 5 more ranks, hope to get lucky. . . .thankfully you need to spend all your DP before making rolls, or a lucky pure caster with 40 DP might be able to learn 8 lists in a level that way.

When a character expends development points to acquire skill ranks, he may attempt to study one, and only one, list of spells by developing skill ranks for that list (see below for the only exception). Characters may not develop skill ranks for a variety of lists and count on the luck of the dice to give them spells. A character must develop only one list of spells at a time.
Once he has learned a portion of that list (i.e. made a successful Spell Gain Roll), his skill ranks in that list drop to zero. Then he may begin to develop skill ranks in another list or new skill ranks for a higherlevel portion of the same list.
...snip for brevity. . .
If a character is able to allocate development points for a total of 20 skill ranks with a list (insuring its gain), he learns the list immediately and may spend DP to develop skill ranks for a second spell list. He will ?learn? the appropriate portion of the first list and be entitled to make a Spell Gain Roll for the second.
If a character, after making an unsuccessful Spell Gain Roll, wishes to begin the study of another list, he may do so, but he forfeits all skill ranks developed for the first spell list. Such skill ranks may be neither transferred nor retained if the character wishes to switch his efforts to some other spell list. He may, if he has enough development points, allocate development points to bring the skill rank total with the first list to 20 and then begin to develop skill ranks for the second as described above.

I think the red portion, is referring fairly clearly to the green portion (and to the slight variant of the paragraph after the green portion). . .so you need to 20 rank the first list, thus learning it without a roll, to get a chance to roll on the second list. .

I guess SL over-riding CL makes sense, but P 19-20 in SL is a word for word cut-n-paste of 83 in CL, except the green para above and the one after it are laid out in bullet points. (Which, if anything, only stress the importance of those two points out of the rest of the text.)

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Not the way I read it. As the last line in the second portion that you quoted

He may, if he has enough development points, allocate development points to bring the skill rank total with the first list to 20 and then begin to develop skill ranks for the second as described above.

specifically points out that if the character still has development points, he may buy more ranks. That in and of itself, is saying that those "5 steps" you listed are not accurate as this sentence implies that the spell gain roll is made immediately WHEN the ranks are purchased, not at the end of development, after all points have been spent.

I gave the official interpretation up above -- http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=6061.msg79780#msg79780 -- In making that Official Interpretation I reviewed and then made the interpretation from ALL of the text involved, not just bits and pieces.

Some of the text in Character Law and Spell Law IS contradictory, thus the need for the Official Interpretation to make it clearer and more easily understood.

[Moriarty]

The way I see it, the original author must have thought:
"OK, given the golden 'one-and-only-one spell list pick per level' rule, we seem 'stuck' with that one spell list we are trying to learn, until we learn it. So what happens if we keep failing and/or we find out we don't want that spell list after all, but wish to go for a different spell lists instead? Shouldn't the rules have some way to handle that shift?"

Consequently, this is how I read that part in Spell Law:
If a character, after making an unsuccessful Spell Gain Roll thus failing to learn new spells this level, wishes to begin the study of another list (next level), he may do so (next level) but he forfeits all skill ranks developed for the first spell list (accumulated through previous levels). Such skill ranks may be neither transferred nor retained (from one level to the next) if the character wishes to switch his efforts to some other spell list. He may, if he has enough development points (and if he wishes to switch his efforts now, without discarding already purchased ranks), allocate development points to bring the skill rank total with the first list to 20 and then begin to develop skill ranks for the second as described above.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

That is fine. You read it more strictly than I did. I read it in the manner which best serves the players (i.e. and making  the game more fun for them overall).

As I said, there is contradictory/confusing language in the book, thus different people can have different interpretations.  The Official Interpretation is what I posted up above for those who want to know it.

[Marc R]

That last paragraph does seem to relate to the next level of development. You don't caclulate your bonuses until after spending your DP, so you have no bonus to apply to a roll until after spending DP.

You can't purchase 1 rank of body development, roll it, get a 1, THEN decide to buy a second rank.

But, in terms of overall tone, the quote on page 19 of SL seems very appropriate:

Characters may not develop skill ranks for a variety of lists and count on the luck of the dice to give them spells. A character must develop only one ?list? of spells at a time.

The one exception, mentioned in the line above, and detailed below, doesn't involve luck, you "Auto" gain the list for 20 ranks without rolling. allowing "Buy ranks, roll, buy ranks, roll" would indeed allow you to trust to luck to give them spells.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Body Development -- actually, yes, you can do exactly that. There is nothing in the rules that prevent you from doing just what you described. The book lists the various "steps" of character development in a specific order, not because that order is vitally important to the process, but to keep things organized better, to make it easier on a player who is learning the game. If a player does not want to follow that order specifically, there are no rules against it.

Thus a player can, if he wants, buy a rank of Body Development, see how many hits it gives, and then purchase a second rank if he still has enough unspent DPs (and his profession allows the purchase of more than one rank per level).

Beside, Spell List Acquisition isn't like Body Development because once the list is successfully learned, the ranks disappear, so there is no "bonuses to total" in the same manner as other skills.

Yes, I also think that that quote is very appropriate. You learn one list at a time.

To me that says (along with everything else in that section), that you buy ranks in a list, and then determine whether or not you succeeded, and then go on to the next thing you want to develop, be it another portion of the same list, another list, or a different skill altogether.

That quote also says to me, that you cannot purchase ranks in 4 (or however many) lists at the same time and then roll for all of the lists at the same time (i.e. trusting in the luck of the dice to let you learn one or more of those lists).

You purchase ranks in 1 list, decide whether or not you learn it. Then, if you did not learn it, decide if you want to discard those ranks or buy more (and you can only buy more ranks in the same list) if you have enough points to bring the number of ranks to 20. If you did learn it, you can then move on to learning the next spell list portion (be it on the same list or a different one).

Or to put it another way, you can only have ranks in one list portion at a time. The ranks in one list portion have to disappear (through learning the portion, or through abandonment) before you can learn ranks in a different list portion. This way of viewing it is fully consistent with both what is written and the Official Interpretation that I made.

The one exception, mentioned in the line above, and detailed below, doesn't involve luck, you "Auto" gain the list for 20 ranks without rolling. allowing "Buy ranks, roll, buy ranks, roll" would indeed allow you to trust to luck to give them spells.

That "auto" gain is a bullet point, one of t. That would indicate that the bullet point is NOT the "one exception" that the earlier paragraph was talking about.

Here, let me use the quote from your earlier post...

When a character expends development points to acquire skill ranks, he may attempt to study one, and only one, list of spells by developing skill ranks for that list (see below for the only exception). Characters may not develop skill ranks for a variety of lists and count on the luck of the dice to give them spells. A character must develop only one list of spells at a time.

Once he has learned a portion of that list (i.e. made a successful Spell Gain Roll), his skill ranks in that list drop to zero. Then he may begin to develop skill ranks in another list or new skill ranks for a higher level portion of the same list.
...snip for brevity. . .

• If a character is able to allocate development points for a total of 20 skill ranks with a list (insuring its gain), he learns the list immediately and may spend DP to develop skill ranks for a second spell list. He will ?learn? the appropriate portion of the first list and be entitled to make a Spell Gain Roll for the second.
  
  
• If a character, after making an unsuccessful Spell Gain Roll, wishes to begin the study of another list, he may do so, but he forfeits all skill ranks developed for the first spell list. Such skill ranks may be neither transferred nor retained if the character wishes to switch his efforts to some other spell list. He may, if he has enough development points, allocate development points to bring the skill rank total with the first list to 20 and then begin to develop skill ranks for the second as described above.

Look at what I marked in blue. That paragraph specifically mentions making the spell gain roll, and then starting another list and no where in this section of Spell Law does it ever say "the next level" or "per level" in regards to making purchases in a second list.

The section in blue is below the section in red. That makes it a viable interpretation that what is marked in blue is the "exception". The part you marked in green is one of 2 bullet points. That makes it part of a set, a smaller portion of a greater whole, and thus less likely that it alone is the "exception", especially since the other bullet point also talks about learning another list portion and it also does not state, either implicitly or explicitly, that it cannot be done during the same level advancement process.

If anything, the part I marked in purple (especially the bolded portion) implies that what it is talking about can be done during the same level advancement period.

Moriarty -- The guy who wrote these rules liked to give every possible advantage to spell users that he could. It is part of the reason why spells went first in the original tactical system for RM2. Therefore, it would likely not be wrong to presume that his intention was to allow him to learn as many spell lists per level as he possibly could when he was playing.

[Cormac Doyle]

Yet the line in purple clearly states that to develop the second list, you must either FORFEIT the ranks in the first list, or pay it up to 20 ranks before starting on a new list.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Yet the line in purple clearly states that to develop the second list, you must either FORFEIT the ranks in the first list, or pay it up to 20 ranks before starting on a new list.

In conjunction with the rest of the lines in that bullet point, yes it does say that (and I have not argued otherwise). It also implies that the purchase of the ranks may be done during that same level of development if you have enough DPs. And look at how all that works into the interpretation of the rules I provided above:

Core Rules

• You may only learn one portion of a list at a time.
  
  
• If your first attempt in a given level is successful, you may attempt to learn a second spell list portion (on a different list, or a higher portion of the list just learned). The core rules do not put any limitations on the number of ranks that must be purchased to allow this.
  
  
• If your first attempt in a given level is unsuccessful, you may attempt to learn a second (different) spell list portion (on a different list than the first), but doing so loses the ranks in the first spell list portion attempted.
  
  
• If your first attempt is unsuccessful, you may purchase more ranks in the same portion, but only if you can bring your total up to 20 ranks, which means you may learn the list automatically.
  
  
• If you purchase 20 ranks in a list, you automatically learn that portion of the spell list (no roll required), and may start purchasing ranks on a second list portion.
  
  
• Although it is not explicitly and clearly stated in the rule, a character may only purchase ranks in 2 different list portions per level. The core rules do say that only one list may be learned, and then it says that there is an exception. However, the way that the exceptions are worded, the character is allowed to attempt to learn a second list portion regardless of the outcome of the attempt to learn the first list portion.
  
  
• Each block of development points is considered a separate "level" for the purpose of learning spell lists. Just as each block of development points also counts separately for how many ranks may be purchased in a given skill. This means that Adolescent and Apprenticeship are fully considered to be separate levels for the learning of spell lists.
  
  

It says nothing about the abandoning of the rank

[Marc R]

The blue portion is clarifying something different from what you're saying it does, take a look at this reference from my previous post above:

Once they have "learned" a portion of that list (i.e. made a successful Spell Gain Roll), their skill ranks in that list drop to zero. Then they may begin to develop skill ranks in another list or new skill ranks for  a higher-level portion of the same list.

If you double check the context of this quoted text, I'm pretty sure what it means is:

Once you "Make" a list, the ranks spent in it drop to zero. . .this was to prevent any confusion with issues like having 10 ranks in SLA "Fire Law" learning pick 1-10, then the next level purchasing 10 ranks in SLA "Fire Law" learning pick 11-20, you only have 10 ranks, not 10+10 from last level 20. hence the whole "Drops to zero ranks" reference.

That's laid out pretty explicity on SL page 20-21

A Successful Roll: Once a successful Spell Gain Roll is made, the character is considered to have learned the use of    the spells on the portion of the list that they were studying. They may then use those spells as long as such use complies with other rules for their use (power points, time  requirements, etc.). The number of skill ranks in that list is reduced to zero. The character may develop more skill ranks for that list, but they apply to learning a higher-level portion of the list.

That doesn't seem to be the "One exception" in question, just a clarification due to the fact that you develop ranks in "Fire Law" get it, then develop "Fire Law" again to go for another portion, you need to start over from scratch with the new portion.

We all agree that 20 ranks allows for you to try for a 2nd list

if less than 20 ranks and a successful roll also allowed a try for a 2nd list. . .that would be two different exceptions.

The two bullet points lay out the only 2 ways to get 20 ranks, but, both refer to getting 20 ranks, so it's still refering to "One" exception.

1) Purchase 20 ranks this level
2) have left over ranks from a failed attempt in a previous level, and "top that off" to 20 ranks.

You dismissed the text of Character Law Option 14 (page 84). But it further rienforces the point, it doesn't say "with this option you need 20 ranks to go for a 2nd list" it says:

In order to attempt to gain two spell lists in one level of development, the first list must still be developed to 20 skill ranks (i.e. the primary stat bonus cannot be applied). However, the bonus can be applied to the roll for the second list (at least one skill rank is required).

That "Still" is pretty key. . .it's not changing anything about the core, it's saying "Even with this option in use, you still have to abide by the core rule about 20 ranking a list before you can go after a 2nd list in the same level.". . .this disalows a situation in which you have a +20 bonus to the stat and only spending 16 ranks to reach 100 bonus and auto learn the list. . . .you still need 20 ranks. . the "still" part is an affirmation that the core rule still applies, not a change.

The example on CL page 84 there says the same thing again:

Example: Bandring has a 90 Empathy and is a Magician (an Essence spell user) with a +10 primary stat bonus (Empathy). If he elects to expend the development points necessary to assure him of one spell
list (i.e. 20 skill ranks), he can then add his +10 bonus to any roll made to get a second list (if at least one more skill rank is developed).
If he only develops his first list with 18 skill ranks, he has a (18x5) + 10 = 100% chance of receiving this list, but he cannot attempt to develop a second list.

[Skaran]

Personally I've never liked the spell list portion acquisition system. Some do I know. Our games will continue to use individual spell development with no roll for acquisition. This suits our style of games best.

Basically regardless of what is or is not an official ruling it still comes down to how you want to play your game.

[Marc R]

Amusingly enough, I use individual spell SLA also. . .and highly reccomend it over the random method. . .heheh.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Amusingly enough, I use individual spell SLA also. . .and highly reccomend it over the random method. . .heheh.

As do I (Option 2.2 on page 22 of Spell law)...

And I just checked with Bruce. The old ICE never put any limits on how many lists may be learned in a given level, nor did they require 20 ranks per list either when they played. They actually did what the book says not to do (buy ranks in lots of lists and then made rolls trusting in lots of luck with the dice, and they did use the stat bonus option while doing this).

It is important to remember though, that most of their game rules were added on the fly and then codified later. Makes me think that the wording perhaps came from somebody abusing the method that they used...


Here are 2 items of interest as well. I just went back to my RM2 spell law and looked at it. There are 2 major differences between RM2 and RMC in regards to development and learning spell lists.

1) In RM2, once you went up a level, you immediately spent the DPs for the next level fo development, even though you did NOT gain any of those skills or even make your spell gain roll until you hit that next level (i.e. when you got enough XP to  reach 3rd level you gained the skills purchase right after getting enough XP for 2nd level, and then you spent DPs for 4th level). Thus, the buying of 20 ranks also gave you the first spell off the portion you wanted right then (i.e. there was a reason for buying 20 ranks), and you got the rest of the list later on at the next level break.

2) RM2 Spell Law also contains some boxed text, which never made it into the RMC Spell Law, that recommends (i.e. it wasn't a rule, it was a suggestion) that pure and hybrid caster learn only a single portion per level and have a small chance of learning another. Basically telling the GM that the number of portions allowed to be learnable in a level helped set the power level of the game.

However, item #1 was completely changed so that you purchased you ranks when you went up a level, not right after going up the previous level and then waiting until the next level break to actually get what you purchased. This did require a number of changes of wording throughout all of the books.

However, both ICE and the RMC Team apparently missed some of the nuances of that change. So, while the  "buy 20 ranks" is still there, the original reason FOR buying them (to get the first spell off the portion right away) was no longer there. That removed a big reason for a character to want to purchase 20 ranks in a list.

The boxed note (#2) was also completely dropped from Spell Law. And the actual mechanics of spell list acquisition were changed slightly in RMC (because of changing when the skills purchased were gained), and while some of the SLA text was changed, it wasn't changed enough (some of it still uses the same RM2 wording) for it to be fully clear and specific, and the new (RMC) wording DOES include contradictory text, and has spots that imply both interpretations.

So, what you have been arguing for would have been mostly correct, if the rules were still exactly like they were in RM2. Since those rules were changed (and you were part of the team that changed them), I have to go by the how the rules are currently written, not how they were written 20 years ago, not with what the rules originally may have intended or said. I have to go with what is written in the current version.

And the current version contains text that implies both 2 lists per level and 1 list per level. However, since that text that implies 1 list per level is inside an option, while the text that implies 2 lists per level is in the core portion of the rules, that means that the 2 lists per level implication wins, and will continue to win out.

You and the rest of the RMC Team changed the rules. Whether or not you intended to change them in the fashion that they ended up being changed is, at this point, a mute topic. You changed them and ICE accepted those changes, and what is posted up above is the official interpretation of those current rules as they are written.

You can continue to discuss this if you want, but unless there are new questions or issues raised, I am likely not going to respond again.

The official interpretation still stands and will continue to stand because it is based on what the currently published RMC text says.

[thrud]

I agree with Rasyr on this one, the official ruling has been made...
But this is Rolmaster and everyone makes his own house rules like they always have.
The most interesting part is the reference to the old days and the fact that you coud buy in lots of lists all at once. This opens up for some new house rules based on ancient RM2 standards.

I like the idea of being able to purchase ranks in multiple lists and rolling for each and every one, trustng in luck. Now, this is most likely not going to happen in our games but I like the thought.