Topic: Training Packages in RM2/RMC/RMX

[Tywyll]

I was curious if it would be possible to do Training packages in RM2/RMX?  If not, why not?  I seem to remember there was something of the sort in the /old/ Arms companion, though from what I remember those tended to be quite imbalanced (at least as I recall).

Would something like that work in the frame work of 'old' RM?  Figuring the class costs of the skills involved and then giving a discount (what is it, 25% less I think?).

Good idea?  Bad idea?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

There are several issues with training packages

1) They give discounts to skills, but usually only impose roleplaying balances which are often ignored.

2) Their costs have to be calculated for each profession - and sorry, but there is no way that I am doing THAT again (I made a master TP cost sheet PDF - 12 pages long - for RMFRP -- UGH!!)

So... if you want to create and use TPs, go ahead...  ICE isn't going to do it for RMC.


One thing that ICE is  going to do for the gift companion that is being worked on, is create Vocations (they might be called Occupations, can't remember which at the moment)... Basically, this is a group of related skills, and you get a bonus to all of those skills based on the least number of ranks you have in any of that particular set of skills).

[Tywyll]

There are several issues with training packages

1) They give discounts to skills, but usually only impose roleplaying balances which are often ignored.

2) Their costs have to be calculated for each profession - and sorry, but there is no way that I am doing THAT again (I made a master TP cost sheet PDF - 12 pages long - for RMFRP -- UGH!!)

So... if you want to create and use TPs, go ahead...  ICE isn't going to do it for RMC.


One thing that ICE is  going to do for the gift companion that is being worked on, is create Vocations (they might be called Occupations, can't remember which at the moment)... Basically, this is a group of related skills, and you get a bonus to all of those skills based on the least number of ranks you have in any of that particular set of skills).

Fair enough.  I was more interested in whether there was an inherent imbalance in the concept.  I mean, obviously Harp used them just fine, with no real issue (that I know of) and no need to figure costs for every class (or rather the math is there to do it yourself).

Were the TP in RMSS handled the same as they were in Harp (flat 25% discount)?  If not, how were they figured?

As to figuring costs, its not that big of a deal for me as I'm looking at playing RM 'classless' (or rather, I've stated up 4 focuses: Combat Oriented, Magic Oriented, Arcane Oriented and Generalist) and set most skills to a base cost of 2/6 for everyone (some skills like spell lists, armor, and weapons being notable exceptions).  So for me, I'd only have to figure the cost for TP's for 4 different types of characters.

As to the RP restrictions vs cost benefit, I certainly see your point.  Since I'd be making mine from scratch for my own campaign world, I'd have a bit more control over that aspect, so its not as big of a concern for me as it would be if I simply allowed any from a published source.

When is the Gift Companion coming out?  sounds cool. 

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Were the TP in RMSS handled the same as they were in Harp (flat 25% discount)?  If not, how were they figured?

Through a slightly more complex formula that gave different discounts to different skill categories. There is a spreadsheet for pricing TPs available in the downloads section.

Gift Companion (we really need a better title hehe) is due out sometime 1st quarter next year, at least that is the goal.

[David Johansen]

In RMSS, with it's big beautiful skill list, Training Packages are a useful sorting tool.  RMC doesn't really need it.

I love TPs but I loathe discounts.  And calculating costs for that matter.

[Tywyll]

In RMSS, with it's big beautiful skill list, Training Packages are a useful sorting tool.  RMC doesn't really need it.

I love TPs but I loathe discounts.  And calculating costs for that matter.

I don't really have an issue with discounts.  With the overwhelming number of skills both in RMSS and RM2 (I don't have RMC), I see them as almost mandatory.

[Balhirath]

Instead of training packages, I simply give out 'free' skill ranks on level 1.
It works out like this:
The player and I sit down and talk about the character, what it have done while growing up (level 0) and what it have been training for (Level 1).
The we start placing ranks for level 0 using the NO-PROFESSION skill cost (They are kids at this point and thus have no profession). Is there a lake or river in the area? If yes, well than they most likely have a rank in Swimming and perhaps sailing. Have they been allowed to ride a horse? No. Okay no riding skill. ect.
This might sound like a lot of work, but it's rather simple. It also allow people to pick up some skills that might not be common for their profession later. (A child of a Smith will have a rank in Smithing, Metal Lore and Metal Evaluation for example)
I try to not use more development points than they have, but in general I just place the ranks without even calculating how many points we have used. After all we do learn a lot of small things while we are children just by playing or helping our parents and our friends parents.

Next is of cause level 1 and again I just place the ranks without counting development points, but more to listen to the players wishes and my own thoughts. Then we look the character over to check that we havent forgotten anything and we're ready to the last thing:
I look the Profession over and change some cost if I feel that they do not really fit. (Swimming 1/3 for a char that grew up in the desert or Riding 4 for a char that grew up with horses ect.)
One rule here: When I lower the cost on a skill, I raise the cost on another skill (using common sense).

Thats it! Ready to play.
This way you get very personal characters and it doesn't unbalance the game. (In my experience the number of skills characters have doesn't unbalance the game. It's when people start to get additional skill ranks that mess things up )

[David Johansen]

Please remain calm, the game police will arrive shortly to correct your heresy.

[smug]

I don't have a problem with discounts, in that they reflect the reality of related skills and skill areas. I have a problem with people suggesting that TPs in some way replace professions, because the latter is about the person and the former is contextual, but in principle, TPs can be OK (the ones in Arms Companion were horrible, however, but no surprise, it was the Arms Companion).

[Balhirath]

Please remain calm, the game police will arrive shortly to correct your heresy.

They might have taken a wrong turn somewhere, coz they haven't shown up yet

[David Johansen]

doh!  I send them out for the heretic and they come back pregnant!

(anyone recognize my obscure media reference?)

[Dark Mistress]

I know this is a very old topic. But I loved TP's it is one of my fav things they added in RMSS/FRP. The reason i like them and the players do, is because at 1st level you can more easily feel like you actually did this or that earlier in life. Plus I have found it leads to a much more well rounded characters. The players like it, because it helps remind them what all skills make sense if they want to RP out this or that concept and have the skills fit it. Since they sometimes overlook or forget a skill otherwise.

I have been adding them to our RMC game and I am just using a flat 20% discount and so far it seems to work out well.

[twh]

Gift Companion (we really need a better title hehe)...

Not a bad idea.  The first couple of times I saw it referenced on the forums I pictured wrapping paper and bows.

[thrud]

Dark Mistress> Interesting idea with the 20% discount.

[Marc R]

I find it comes down to annoyances of bookeeping, like Rasyr pointed out above. . .each package needs to be tailor costed to each profession. . . . .and in the end they limit choice to the imagination of the author, rather than the GM or player. . .

You should be able to come up with a concept that works, and not be penalized for not using one of the pre-made concepts that get 20% discounts.

On the flip side. . .if you can just take any package the GM approves and get a 20% discount. . . .then it seems like you're saying "People who create realistic character concepts get a 20% discount, while people who blatantly powergame get to pay full cost." . . .I'd think that means if you have a good group, you're essentially just discounting all costs 20%. (And having that one player get the "NO you pay full costs" will start arguments.)

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The 20% discount would only work if the GM created all of the Training Packages, and made sure to include packages that were built, not to the strengths of the professions, but to the core of the concept (i.e. non-combat related packages should never have combat skills).

Personally, I don't think that training packages should offer any DP discounts. What they should do is to offer other benefits and perks, and obligations. They should be more about tying the character to the setting than about building the character

For example, taking the "Detective" Training Package could allow the character to carry certain weapons in town, or allow him to carry weapons that were not secured with a peace-bond (i.e. a strip of cloth which shows intent to not use the weapon). Perhaps it gives them police-like powers in the city, etc..

Not to mention friends and contacts that can help characters later on, or even be the source of future adventures (i.e. the obligations mentioned, must help former teacher because of honor debt, or membership in guild (which is where training comes from) requires completion of xx number of jobs over the following year, etc...).

[Fidoric]

I think that what you describe Rasyr is more like a bunch of related background options. IMO TPs are skills, that is things that may be acquire by training, hence the name.
Both are interesting. The background options are great to give depth to a character, but discounted related skills are also useful to help build consistant characters.
Personnaly, I like very much the way RMSS handled TPs.

[Dark Mistress]

The 20% discount would only work if the GM created all of the Training Packages, and made sure to include packages that were built, not to the strengths of the professions, but to the core of the concept (i.e. non-combat related packages should never have combat skills).

Thats what we do, in that we make our own or if we use existing ones they tend to get tweaked for each campaign setting. Also we always add in what fits the concept not what is always the best. Such as a soldier having a couple of ranks in cooking and handle animal ect. Since long wars would have it come up.