Topic: SpaceMaster Express

[shnar]

I personally like having no setting at all, just have a few sample ideas for Races/Professions/etc. In the GM section, explain that this is a way to start but what we're providing is sample info to help get you started. Personally, unless the setting is a particular property that I love, I hate canned environments. And I'd love to see in an Addition talk about making your own races.

-shnar

[David Johansen]

Traveller did have implied tech assumptions in the core game though.  It's hard to remember sometimes that the night vision goggles were still state of the art, coming soon to an army near you, hardware when it came out.

I think that it wasn't such a bad idea using furry races in Spacemaster Privateers.  Because they are the elves and dwarves of sf.  Would people have prefered the same cultures tied to spots of halloween makeup?  The mistake was making them so setting and role specific.  I don't mind oorts being smart, but +10 Reasoning and Memory with half price on all technical skills?  Nope, way too much specialization for a PC race.

As a matter of fact, the first version of the accelerator had toned down, genericized cat and dog people instead of Privateers specific ones.

[Dax]

Like RMX, SMX should include a sample adventure for the presented professions
and therefor a setting is needed.

[Monteblanco]

Like RMX, SMX should include a sample adventure for the presented professions
and therefor a setting is needed.

My Traveller Book has only two pages of setting and an adventure so generic I could run in either Rolemaster or Spacemaster's settings without any change other than dropping the "star" from starship in Rolemaster. Most D&D adventures are not attached to any setting. What is necessary is to careful analyse the game and understand what the implied setting is. Everything else could be added later.

[Dax]

I have to apologize. You are right, a complete setting isn't needed.

But a good adventure should have a little bit of background.

A SF adventure which could also be played with a Fantasy RPG ? 
Independency of Tech Levels has not very much SF appeal to me.

I would prefer more background and an adventure that reads like SF.

[Monteblanco]

Dax,

I understand your point of view, but adding technological elements is not different from adding magical elements to the same plot structure. As such, the same plot can perfectly fit under sci-fi or fantasy.

Technology should be present in SMX to create an appropriate atmosphere to the game. A setting, however, is not that important. Consider the original Alien movie, disregarding the sequels. There is some information on the technology but there is virtually nothing about background. The characters work to a generic corporation that don't give a damn about their lifes. Is there anything else? In which kind of political system they live? In which year the story unfold? We don't know much about the setting (other than what is implied by its technology), but still, the movie is great. My point is, SMX can live without a setting and still include an engaging adventure.

[ictus]

creating a small adventure for SMC should be easy enough if you just stick to the standard stuff, space station, dead freighter whatever, plus monster, bug hunt etc etc...

[DJRJ_AU]

Not to sound too critical or ungrateful or anything, but can someone provide an update as to when we can expect to see some new product for Space Master 3Ed?  I ask only because things have been subdued on that front now for years, with only the occasional Datanet to break the monotony.

All this activity surrounding HARP SF and (now) SpaceMaster Express makes me begin to think that the current release of Space Master is the unwanted bastard offspring of ICE that is going to be left somewhere to die.  Snuff it or feed it, please don't let it wither.



Doug

[shnar]

Is there any 3rd Ed coming out for any RM products? I thought that we basically had either RMFRP (SPaM) or RM2 (SM2) as reprinted in the Classic line.

-shnar

[ob1knorrb]

Is there any 3rd Ed coming out for any RM products? I thought that we basically had either RMFRP (SPaM) or RM2 (SM2) as reprinted in the Classic line.

-shnar

I believe SPaM is what he is referring to, it is the third edition of Spacemaster.

[Wōdwulf Seaxaning]

Well, anymore thoughts on a possible SMX ? I've enjoyed what I've read so far. I'd buy a SMX & SMC .I'm tempted to buy SMP except I ,1) don't like to buy up to 6 (or 7 books if you include Future law) to run a game.2) have a prepackaged setting included wasting valuable space in the books.

I really think ICE should produce a SMC or SMX ,pared down to the core sci-fi basics as a few other posters have suggested.Then do a series of SMX/C additions that cover such things as :1) professions,2)Races,3)Tech (both legal n' black market kinds ),4) additional spaceship/fighter rules (including combat n' other related topics),5)Psions & Psionics,6) Robots/droids,7)Cybernetics & cyborgs.8)additional weapon attack/critical n' fumble tables.

[markc]

 I do not know but I might send an email to someone at ICE asking the Q about planed SM books. I do know that the old books SM2 are available in PDF as well as Armored Assault and StarStrike.

MDC

[David Johansen]

I'd like to do one but ICE wouldn't approve what I'd want to do as it would essentially be a new version of Rolemaster.

Nor should they because a lite product should be able to use expansion materials from other books without modification.  I can only build a SPAMlite that is 100% expandable with existing books by actually using the RMSS system and trimming the number of professions, races (I'd do simpler races too, the SPAM races are too busy for a lite game), and skills.  ICE doesn't want to go that route because they feel a lite game should be simpler than RMSS and by extension SPAM is.

Tim has told me repeatedly that he doesn't think any sort of a simplified RMSS is possible and after years of screwing around with it I agree.  It's already plenty simple. 

Another problem is that ICE is stretched pretty thin as is at present.  And Spacemaster Privateers is pretty clearly not one of their priorities.  Doubtless this relates to sales.  If they were all taking home a million a year due to Spacemaster sales this would probably change.  Of course, with no new Spacemaster product it never gets the new product boost either, I don't know how well the datanets did.

Spacemaster support would also compete with HARP SF which is due later this year and ICE's pretty heavily invested in it.

I know, it's not the same thing.  I have a few half finished SPAM things on my harddrive but really I've lost interest and faith.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Another problem is that ICE is stretched pretty thin as is at present.  And Spacemaster Privateers is pretty clearly not one of their priorities.  Doubtless this relates to sales.  If they were all taking home a million a year due to Spacemaster sales this would probably change.  Of course, with no new Spacemaster product it never gets the new product boost either, I don't know how well the datanets did.

If ICE were taking home a million a year on any line, it'd be a whole different universe! It's hard to see what's a sure-fire seller for Spacemaster at this point, though, and that's what it takes for any line. There might be enough DataNets to make a compilation print product viable.

Spacemaster support would also compete with HARP SF which is due later this year and ICE's pretty heavily invested in it.

They don't have to. I can imagine adaptations of the Privateers setting to HARP SF and Tintamar to Spacemaster, allowing cross-system support for the settings for instance. Or a Spacemaster conversion for AfterWorlds.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[David Johansen]

I'll put in a quick list of things I would change if I had carte blanche.  They wouldn't be huge changes because I'm very much a fan of the RMSS engine.  But given a chance to tinker...

First and foremost I'd clean up training packages.  They'd have a sliding discount that's linked to the time frame and number of skills.  You'd be able to re-purchase a training package every level.  This would make it easier to take on some of the more intensive ones from Black Ops and maintain the degree of expertise one would expect a professional to have.  There'd be fixed gear package instead of a list of things to roll for.  I'd also replace and unspecified ranks with specific skills to reduce the number of times you have to flip back to the skill list.  I'd do this with adolescence packages too.

In my experience, getting rid of unspecified ranks would really streamline things for new players.

So far I could do this and stay 100% compatible by simply placing the game in a new setting.  As soon as you started having to re-write the current races there'd be compatibility problems.  There wouldn't be any talents or flaws in the lite book so the races wouldn't use them.

The change I'd make that would really mess up the compatability is to shift the skill and category progressions and ditch Combined progression in favour of allowing you to develop chinese and tulgar cooking as separate skills in the cooking category.  I'd also shunt the whole -30 unskilled penalty to the category.  This would encourage building categories for broad ability and skills for specialized abilies.  It would also remove the need to purchase a rank in tonnes of individual skills to dodge the -15.

All of the one skill categories like Body Development and Mind Points would be handled entirely on the category sheet and not transfered to the skill sheet as they are at present.

The goal would be to shift focus from the individual skills to the categories while maintaining the ability to focus on individual skills.  I'd keep the everyman, occupational, and restricted designations but I'd use them sparingly and they wouldn't appear at all in the lite version.

I firmly believe that if the old ICE had made this sort of modification to RMFrp and SPAM they could have won back the RM2 fan base and we wouldn't have the deep and widening divide we have now.

[shnar]

First and foremost I'd clean up training packages.  They'd have a sliding discount that's linked to the time frame and number of skills.  You'd be able to re-purchase a training package every level.  This would make it easier to take on some of the more intensive ones from Black Ops and maintain the degree of expertise one would expect a professional to have.  There'd be fixed gear package instead of a list of things to roll for. 

Can't you do this already with Training Packages? I'm no RMSS expert, but can't you earn any Training Package at any level with GM's permission? And can't a TP have an "auto" receive of items?

-shnar

[Grinnen Baeritt]

First and foremost I'd clean up training packages.  They'd have a sliding discount that's linked to the time frame and number of skills.  You'd be able to re-purchase a training package every level.  This would make it easier to take on some of the more intensive ones from Black Ops and maintain the degree of expertise one would expect a professional to have.  There'd be fixed gear package instead of a list of things to roll for.  I'd also replace unspecified ranks with specific skills to reduce the number of times you have to flip back to the skill list.  I'd do this with adolescence packages too.

In my experience, getting rid of unspecified ranks would really streamline things for new players.

Agree with the bold and sort of agree with the red.

They definitely need cleaning up, some are very unbalanced...and not system-transferable (though the professions from RMSS (Black Ops) and SM:P are to a great degree fairly transferable. Whilst I agree that simplifying, to a point, is a good idea, perhaps the reduced skills should be suggested with the option left for selection by those more experienced players?

The change I'd make that would really mess up the compatability is to shift the skill and category progressions and ditch Combined progression in favour of allowing you to develop chinese and tulgar cooking as separate skills in the cooking category.  I'd also shunt the whole -30 unskilled penalty to the category.  This would encourage building categories for broad ability and skills for specialized abilies.  It would also remove the need to purchase a rank in tonnes of individual skills to dodge the -15.

Yep, I agree again. Reduces the complexity overall. One skill progression to rule them all!

Though I'd simply have the Category penalty as -20, and the skill penalty as -10.

All of the one skill categories like Body Development and Mind Points would be handled entirely on the category sheet and not transfered to the skill sheet as they are at present.

The goal would be to shift focus from the individual skills to the categories while maintaining the ability to focus on individual skills.  I'd keep the everyman, occupational, and restricted designations but I'd use them sparingly and they wouldn't appear at all in the lite version.

To a degree I'd like to keep this specifically as Racial abilities... or allow them to be purchased as traits.

[David Johansen]

Can't you do this already with Training Packages? I'm no RMSS expert, but can't you earn any Training Package at any level with GM's permission? And can't a TP have an "auto" receive of items?

-shnar

Sorry, I was unclear, you'd be able to buy the same training package each level.  For instance you could buy "Soldier" each time you level up.  The point of getting rid of the item rolls is mainly streamlining but also removing an additional source of bonus items which somewhat undermine the background options system.

My contention is that it's not so much the presence of categories in RMSS that make character creation slow.  It's all the running back to the skill list to pick unspecified ranks (why on earth are language ranks unspecified?), and all the extra dice rolling involved in taking training packages, and having stuff like power point and body development on both the skill and category sheets.

Actually, as I think about it, I'd probably just make skills and categories progress at the skill rate to reduce the number of different progressions.  Going up to the combined rate would be too much.

[markc]

 DJ,
 One thing that helped my game is to have a spreed sheet with all the skills in a category that I used in my game. It was about 5 pages or so. But I had a couple of copies for the players and they just looked at the category and made there picks. No book fliping but some GM questions on which skills I thought woud work better.

 I think the next time I game SM I will have a sheet with all of the players skills on it in alphbetical order to make skill resolution better also. IMO this will also speed up play and no more asking "that skill is where?". But again it requires a computer to keep track of ranks. But I guess you could just print a sheet with all the skills and the PC's only have to fill in the row that matters.

MDC

[Wōdwulf Seaxaning]

I do not know but I might send an email to someone at ICE asking the Q about planed SM books. I do know that the old books SM2 are available in PDF as well as Armored Assault and StarStrike.

MDC

I'm going to buy the PDFs of SM2 for starters & possibly SMP main book (used ) to see which one I prefer.Though I'm pretty sure that I'll use SM2 either to add options to my future Cyberspace campaign or my own Sci-Fi/Fantasy campaign world.