Author Topic: Overcasting and boost spell level.  (Read 109 times)

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Offline r0bperry

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Overcasting and boost spell level.
« on: October 13, 2021, 07:47:16 PM »
I had a question regarding a rule I have used longer than I can remember. But can not find the exact place I had seen it. I know its there because I remember reading it several years ago when showing it to another player. I think it was in one of the Companions. But then again maybe I am just remembering it all wrong.

The rule I am talking about is beefing up a spell to cast at a higher level for more power. Now I dont think I am only talking about pumping more PP into a spell to get higher levels out of it. I did find that option in Spell Law.

What Im talking about is casting say a level 2 Shock Bolt mutiple times within a single casting to produce a doubling effect. Either doubling the power of the spell or casting it so you might hit mutiple targets at -25 per additional target. Casting say a x2 (lvl 4) or x3 (lvl6) version of the spell in a single go. 
It wasn't Spell Mastery because I know what I can do with that to boost the power of a spell. No it was something else.

Now granted this could very well have been a house rule my original DM used way back before 3E or 4E came out, and I just kept doing it myself. But I am sure I read rules on this somewhere.

Has anyone else used or come across this rule and if so where might I find it. Like I said I found the PP boost to power up a spell but not this rule.

Any help would be great.

Offline r0bperry

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Re: Overcasting and boost spell level.
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2021, 01:56:59 AM »
Edit to this post.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think the rule being used was the Combine Spell/Spell Effects Optional Rule.

I believe it says to combine spells you add the levels together and cast at new level. Other modifications may apply.

Under this rule there is no reason you could not combine the same spell more than one time. Then add in an a modifier to attack mutiple targets.

I mean it is reading into the rule with imagination. But still within the rule parameters.

What do you think?

Offline r0bperry

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Re: Overcasting and boost spell level.
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2021, 04:49:13 AM »
    error

Offline r0bperry

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Re: Overcasting and boost spell level.
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2021, 04:51:57 AM »
Edit 2:
I have also found where it places a warning for combining some spell effects. But this would presuppose that there are rules for combining effects. Not just casting multiple spells that conflict.

Here is the rule.

COMBINING SPELL EFFECTS
The effects of spells of the same name cannot normally be combined (e.g., the effects of a Protection I spell and a Protection II spell cannot be stacked). The various Aura spells may not be combined with Blur. A Gamemaster may not want to allow certain other spells to be combined. If it is more appropriate in their world system, we strongly suggest they make more restrictions than we indicate in the rules.
This may be particularly appropriate for spells on the same list (e.g., the Cleric Base list, Protections).
Example: A GM might not allow Prayer I (+5 to RRs and maneuvers) and Resistance I (+5 to RRs and DB) to combine for the purposes of RRs.

The wording of this doesn't exclude the casting or stacking of spells being cast. Only that it is inadvisable to cast particular spells together. So if I wanted to combine a Wall of Thorns with a Wall of Fire and produce a Thorny Wall of Fire it would be possible. Other iterations would be to combine multiple levels of Invisibility (Invisible to Sight, Smell, Life Sense, Women, Dogs, Undead,etc) Though there is the single spell Selective Invisibility that could apply as well. Still, however the same combination could apply.

Well, either way still looking for an answer to this one.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Overcasting and boost spell level.
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2021, 04:59:17 AM »
Are you thinking of something like Spell Mastery?  Extending the range, duration, or damage of a spell?  It may be in Elemental Companion, Spell User's Companion, or Alchemy Companion.  If I can get to take a look today, I will check it out.
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Offline netbat

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Re: Overcasting and boost spell level.
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2021, 06:17:00 AM »
It sounds like the rules for ritual magic.
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Offline r0bperry

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Re: Overcasting and boost spell level.
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2021, 06:18:35 AM »
I know it's not just a Spell Mastery skill. But I did think it was in one of the companions. Just not sure which.

Also Ritual magic takes time. What this was, is casting two Shock Bolts at the same time, and just doubling the level to get the effect of two spells with a single casting. That's as simple as I can make it.

I know there are ways to cast back-to-back spells, especially when making items or when storing spells. I guess this is something like that except you just add all the spell levels together, apply ESF, and cast.

Offline Barner Cobblewood

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Re: Overcasting and boost spell level.
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2021, 08:33:32 AM »
I had a question regarding a rule I have used longer than I can remember. But can not find the exact place I had seen it. I know its there because I remember reading it several years ago when showing it to another player. I think it was in one of the Companions. But then again maybe I am just remembering it all wrong.

The rule I am talking about is beefing up a spell to cast at a higher level for more power. Now I dont think I am only talking about pumping more PP into a spell to get higher levels out of it. I did find that option in Spell Law.

What Im talking about is casting say a level 2 Shock Bolt mutiple times within a single casting to produce a doubling effect. Either doubling the power of the spell or casting it so you might hit mutiple targets at -25 per additional target. Casting say a x2 (lvl 4) or x3 (lvl6) version of the spell in a single go. 
It wasn't Spell Mastery because I know what I can do with that to boost the power of a spell. No it was something else.

Now granted this could very well have been a house rule my original DM used way back before 3E or 4E came out, and I just kept doing it myself. But I am sure I read rules on this somewhere.

Has anyone else used or come across this rule and if so where might I find it. Like I said I found the PP boost to power up a spell but not this rule.

Any help would be great.

Not sure about casting multiple times, but perhaps RMCVI 4.3 Variability in attack level based on list knowledge, p.27 applies to what you are remembering about spell power. Also RMCVI 4.1 Casting faster spells, p. 26 allows spells to be cast faster

Offline jdale

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Re: Overcasting and boost spell level.
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2021, 05:28:33 PM »
Quote
COMBINING SPELL EFFECTS
The effects of spells of the same name cannot normally be combined (e.g., the effects of a Protection I spell and a Protection II spell cannot be stacked). The various Aura spells may not be combined with Blur. A Gamemaster may not want to allow certain other spells to be combined. If it is more appropriate in their world system, we strongly suggest they make more restrictions than we indicate in the rules.
This may be particularly appropriate for spells on the same list (e.g., the Cleric Base list, Protections).
Example: A GM might not allow Prayer I (+5 to RRs and maneuvers) and Resistance I (+5 to RRs and DB) to combine for the purposes of RRs.

I think this is a misreading of the rule about combining spell effects. The intention there is to prevent receiving the simultaneous benefit of similar spells. You can't be benefiting from the +5 from a Protection I spell while also getting a +10 from a Protection II spell, because they are doing basically the same thing. You can't benefit from an extremely bright aura and also add in the benefit from a slightly less bright aura. This is also referred to as "stacking" spell effects.

It doesn't have anything to do with how the spells are cast. They might be cast by two different people, or in subsequent rounds.
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Offline r0bperry

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Re: Overcasting and boost spell level.
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2021, 07:23:16 PM »
After doing more research and seeing the various rules in the system. I think that the originator of this took from several rules, maybe some outside of RM, and determined that x2, x3, x4, etc... casting was within the rules, so long as you took into account the rules regarding Conflicting Spells, ESF, Compounded Level with PP, Spell Mastery, the Multi-Attacker rule, and a few others. I think if you look at the action economy of how much % action it takes to prep and cast spells it also works out.

Not really a house rule but a rule that was just spread out among several other rules that he just took parts of to build a unifying rule.

The rule that came out doesn't impact the game negatively because of all the cost and ESF modifiers. Besides if you were to look at the spells most often affected there are spells in the same lists at a higher level do the same, if not greater, thing at less cost in PP and ESF and have greater results.
In the end for the casting of Shock Bolt, it was like casting Magic Missile in D&D (which I think was the catalyst for this), where you cast multiple Missiles based on level for increasing effect. In that regard it was fine. As for other spells that were doubled, the cost to effect ratio was so much greater than it really only helped for spells of level 4 or less anyway. Beyond that, the cost and compounding ESF made it not worth it, while better spells were higher or equal level to the one they were attempting.

Sorry, off-topic:
This was in another post and I have used it myself. Since it takes 90% action to prep a spell and 10% to hold the spell. There was nothing in the rules preventing the caster from prepping a second spell right behind the first and casting both in the same round or back-to-back rounds. This was done for spells that took several rounds to cast and the caster had the time to do it before a battle. Having two, three-round spells waiting for back-to-back casting was within the rules and a viable method. I used to allow it provided SD rolls were made to maintain the first spell while the second was prepped, with dire consequences when it failed.
Sorry off-topic, for another time. But it seemed to also apply in a backhand way.

 


Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Overcasting and boost spell level.
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2021, 09:57:50 PM »
The SL optional rules allow a caster to increase the damage of an elemental attack spell (e.g., a shock bolt) by expending more PPs but not any "double effect". In your example, by spending 4 PPs on a shock bolt, a Magician would inflict damage x2 — and damage x3 by spending 6 PPs.
OTOH, there are some elemental wall and aura spells that explicitly increase the inflicted critical level when expending more PPs. For instance, "Aura blaze" in the RoCo.V, a level 12 spell, explicitly mentions that "the severity of the criticals delivered can be raised by one degree of severity for each additional 12 PPs the caster expends in casting this spell."

Aren't you just mixing all of these?
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Offline r0bperry

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Re: Overcasting and boost spell level.
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2021, 10:47:26 PM »
Addendum- If you were to just use Spell Mastery to do this it woukd be the same. Just add one roll to see if it can happen then poof you have it.
I think a better comprehensive list of how Spell Mastery can be used might be a good inclusion in any rules set in the future. Even as an Options list with some modifiers.