Author Topic: Ambush modification  (Read 2804 times)

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Offline MisterK

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2021, 12:14:21 PM »
My GMing experience in RM is more in the mid-to-high levels (from around 10 to 20+). In addition, though I did not pick RMU, my house rules had similar end effects - making spellcasting easier. The balancing came with easier access to spells for the non-casting professions - in the end, spell use was actually a gradient rather than a yes (PSU and HSU) / no (NSU) / some (SSU) and having NSUs with a handful of lists developed to level 5 or so is not rare.

About the magic-resisting skills, I don't know. I'd say that a mage should be able to affect a fighter with a spell about as often as the fighter is able to carve him up with his weapon in melee combat. For non-elemental spells, the RR is already deterrent enough, I think, especially if you adopt the "partial resist" option.

The issue is more on versatility of spells - body alteration, illusions, movement, sensory enhancement or supernatural detections, and so on. Being able to access even a limited set of magical options is a game changer for a non-caster profession - which means either spell lists or a boatload of (not necessarily very powerful) magic items. And the only thing you need to make it work is to lower the spell list acquisition price for NSU by any amount you are comfortable with.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2021, 12:25:51 PM »

I'm all for trimming the skill list (which is one of the reasons I'm not interested in RMU)....

I'm not sure what you mean. RMU's skill list is leaner than any other edition; vastly leaner than either RMSS or RM2 in their current form.

I'm not sure what you call "leaner" - the RMU character law I got has 96 skills listed in table 4-1 (including skills that must be specialised). RM Classic has 75 including listed secondary skills. I was hoping for a 40-something skill list, with a bunch of non-quantified talents and descriptors to bring variety and color where numbers were not needed.

Offline jdale

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2021, 01:08:16 PM »
96 includes spell lists, which aren't exactly skills, and which you aren't counting for RMC, so they are closer than you are saying. And I think RMC sweeps a bunch of stuff under the rug with hodge-podge "skills" like Lore-Technical.

If you want a super lean list, you could just let them purchase the categories directly and not use the individual skills at all. That's 27. Getting down to 40 would mean most categories have been collapsed to that level, and a few will have 2-3 skills.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2021, 02:09:53 PM »

I'm not sure what you call "leaner" - the RMU character law I got has 96 skills listed in table 4-1 (including skills that must be specialised). RM Classic has 75 including listed secondary skills. I was hoping for a 40-something skill list, with a bunch of non-quantified talents and descriptors to bring variety and color where numbers were not needed.

Yes, fair point. However, RMU includes many skills in the core that needed to be added in Companions to RM2. RMCompanion I alone added things like Animal Training, Appraisal, Crafting, Diplomacy, Disarming, and Reverse Stroke, which are all in (in various forms) in the RMU core.
      Then Companion II added many more skills to RM2, such that by Companion II the skill list had bloated to 216. There's a lot of duplication here, as Crafting in RM2 is a separate skill from Fletching, Leather Working, etc. So the RM2 list quickly becomes longer and more redundant. True, it is not entirely fair to compare RMU Core to RM2 Core + Companions I and II. But I find the RMU core far more comprehensive than the RM2 core was, and less redundant. RMU also has a system of similar skills that means it will not have to expand to 216 skills.

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Offline Neee-Wom

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2021, 05:24:02 PM »
I GM a RM2/RMC quite customized, the main customization is keeping number of skills below 50, so I'm not interested in having more skills for characters to develop. I wanted a way to make NSU fighting more powerful and versatile in a combat without creating new rules/mechanics.

I agree that perceived power can be different depending of the level, but I like the journey and it's a pity for players to have the perception that their rogue is less relevant now that the mystic can do everything better, sometimes it's solved during the game using kregora, but powering up fighters, rogues and thieves is good for me.

Of course I will buy RMU but at 47 I do not have the push or time to learn a new system, but I will look at it.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2021, 05:58:54 PM »
One thing RMU does enable by default that helps NSUs is more attacks. RM2 had the Two Weapon combo and martial arts katas, but RMU makes it more of a system for everyone, and enables more attacks. RMU also enables all characters to make two quick attacks per round -- when you have a very high OB, you can consider doing that even though each attack is at -50. So, that definitely helps NSUs.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2021, 08:56:54 PM »
One thing RMU does enable by default that helps NSUs is more attacks. RM2 had the Two Weapon combo and martial arts katas, but RMU makes it more of a system for everyone, and enables more attacks. RMU also enables all characters to make two quick attacks per round -- when you have a very high OB, you can consider doing that even though each attack is at -50. So, that definitely helps NSUs.
I don't know as if I'd agree that really helps NSU's that much.  Unless you have some other kind of benefit adding to your attacks, if a -50 isn't causing difficulties to hit you're likely either very high level or fighting a pretty inferior foe.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2021, 10:03:37 PM »
One thing RMU does enable by default that helps NSUs is more attacks. RM2 had the Two Weapon combo and martial arts katas, but RMU makes it more of a system for everyone, and enables more attacks. RMU also enables all characters to make two quick attacks per round -- when you have a very high OB, you can consider doing that even though each attack is at -50. So, that definitely helps NSUs.
I don't know as if I'd agree that really helps NSU's that much.  Unless you have some other kind of benefit adding to your attacks, if a -50 isn't causing difficulties to hit you're likely either very high level or fighting a pretty inferior foe.

We are talking about how casters surpass NSUs at higher levels, so I thought mentioning higher levels is relevant.

Note also that the smoother decline of skill rank bonuses in RMU -- namely, +5 for the first 10 ranks, then +3 for the next 10, then +2, then +1 -- enables generally higher bonuses overall at higher levels than in RM2 (which had a steeper dropoff: 5, 2, 1, 1/2). The skill rank bonus for 30 ranks (not counting professional bonuses) would be 100 in RMU but only 80 in RM2.

That is achievable at level 15. Add in professional bonuses (as much as +30 in RMU), stats (max +45 plus racial bonuses), and items, and yes, you could be pushing OBs approaching 200 at level 15.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2021, 08:19:03 PM »
We are talking about how casters surpass NSUs at higher levels, so I thought mentioning higher levels is relevant.
The issue isn't PC level, but level/capabilities of the enemy. As most games go the route of increasing the foes powers and abilities as the PCs gain in level, a -50 is still a big deal. The only time it wouldn't be would be the very - VERY - rare times they are fighting something so weak that it doesn't matter. Except it still does. Why bother with splitting your attack, lowering the number and then lowering it yet again, when you could use that big bonus and get a big hit/crit. (At least, the massively increased chance of a big crit.)

Using your example of a fighter with 200 OB we get 2 +50 attacks (200/2 = 100. 100-50 = 50.)* I say just let them divvy up their OB how they want.

But this should be its own thread.

*Unless their is an ability in RMU that allows them to ignore the -50. I don't know, I haven't looked at the rules in years.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2021, 12:09:53 AM »
Using your example of a fighter with 200 OB we get 2 +50 attacks (200/2 = 100. 100-50 = 50.)* I say just let them divvy up their OB how they want.

But this should be its own thread.

*Unless their is an ability in RMU that allows them to ignore the -50. I don't know, I haven't looked at the rules in years.

The RMU rules specify that characters can spend less Action Points on an action, at a penalty of -25 per action point less than the normal cost. What this means is that, since a normal melee attack is 4 AP, characters can make 2 quick attacks at 2 AP each, for a penalty of -50 to each attack.

So, it is not a case of deciding between one attack at 200 OB vs. 2 attacks at +50 OB, as you suggested above. Rather, it is a case of one attack at 200 OB vs. 2 attacks at 150 OB.

So yes, that is why -50 isn't as big a deal as you might think. A +150 OB attack is still very deadly... especially if you get two of them.

And I think that's a good thing. High level Arms Users in RMU are buzzsaws of death in a way they were not in previous editions. In RM2, they were limited to one effective attack per 10-second round (short of developing Two Weapon combo). In RMU, they can make two very effective attacks per 5-second round, and that's not even counting what they can do with the Multiple Attacks skill.

Yes, casters can reshape the fabric of reality, but there's something to be said for being able to kill multiple opponents per round, even when they have decent defenses.

The same rule (-25 per AP less than the normal cost) does not help Casters as much, because there is a hard limit of 1 spell/round.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2021, 11:00:19 AM »
Rand's point is that for attacks on foes of the attackers caliber a 50OB swing is a big deal and he's right. That was exactly my point. If a 50 point swing doesn't impact your characters ability to land a good blow then it's unlikely you're fighting an equal foe in the first place (not a good baseline to try and balance from).

Now, yes, at VERY high levels that gets more tricky, but how high are we talking and how high of level do you think the average RM user goes? From my experience around here people typically don't even see 10th level. I think I've known one or two people to comment that they've gotten into the 20's even.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2021, 11:25:19 AM »
Rand's point is that for attacks on foes of the attackers caliber a 50OB swing is a big deal and he's right. That was exactly my point. If a 50 point swing doesn't impact your characters ability to land a good blow then it's unlikely you're fighting an equal foe in the first place (not a good baseline to try and balance from).

Now, yes, at VERY high levels that gets more tricky, but how high are we talking and how high of level do you think the average RM user goes? From my experience around here people typically don't even see 10th level. I think I've known one or two people to comment that they've gotten into the 20's even.

Yes, I agree that few games get past level 10. By that point, I would say that semis and casters are starting to surpass NSUs in RM2, though the gap is not huge at that level either way you judge it.

In RMU, I think the level at which semis and casters start to surpass NSU's is lower, due to all the things that enhance casting in RMU. However, even by level 10, NSUs do now (in RMU) have the advantage of the quick attack I outlined above. A level 10 Fighter can be expected to have an OB in the vicinity of 150 (100 rank bonus in a professional skill; +30 for stats; +15 or 20 for Item). That means his choice is between a single +150 attack or two +100 attacks.

+100 attacks still have a very high chance of success, especially if you get two of them. These attacks are especially useful against casters who might cast things like Bladeturn I since that blocks only one attack. Some casters might cast Bladeturn II, to block II, but that's a level 11 spell, and of course we haven't even talked about the Fighter using multiattack here (which is the real key to boosting high level arms users). One or more of those attacks is very likely to get through.

You're right about comparing apples to apples, but remember that the core comparison here is between casters and NSUs. I don't think there are too many casters whose defenses could handle multiple +100 attacks per round. Casters tend to have lower defenses, which is why I brought up the point that even with a -50 penalty, an NSU has a good chance of injuring a caster.

In any case, the central point I am making is that NSUs in RMU have an additional tool that they did not (AFAIK) have in previous editions: the ability to make two quick melee attacks per round without having to develop any special skill for it. In some cases, this will mean NSUs being able to kill literally twice the number of opponents per round they would have in RM2. This I think gives a significant boost to NSUs.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2021, 11:00:06 PM »
I think the "who wins in a fight" approach isn't very useful for RPG balance. That's fine for an on-line shooter, but the PCs normally aren't competing to see who can kill the other, they are competing for a share of game focus. That's why spell-casters with a good range of abilities will shine compared to a pure combat wombat (with or without spells). But a Fighter that focuses purely on killing is making the choice to be one-dimensional. There's plenty of skills that can make the Fighter useful outside of combat. Making it easier to remember to pick up those skills is a large part of why I pushed to raise the DP/level up to sixty.
And as for combat spotlight share, I don't think equal-level matches is a good measure there, either. Generally, match-ups will be against lower-level opponents or against a higher-level monster where the PCs can have the advantage of numbers. Mirror-matches tend to be exceptions, unless the GM wants every other session to be rolling up new characters.
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Offline Neee-Wom

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2021, 04:53:57 AM »
Thanks for all the input, when I started this thread I wanted this kind of feedback but some comments are about making NSU more deadly and that was not my main objective.

I wanted to make NSU more versatile giving them control during combat, for example a swashbuckler can decide the critical that humiliates the oponent, or a fighter can knock out without killing. Please note that I only allow this on full attacks, so unless the NSU is hasted you cannot use it.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2021, 06:27:03 AM »
There is a Stun Critical Table in one of the Companions but I can't find the book at the moment.  Our players can declare a "non-lethal" attack on their opponent and any crits are resolved on the Stun table.  The attacker simply strikes at the opponent with the flat of their sword or with the pommel of their weapon.  Sometimes they don't want a lethal attack or they really need the uncooperative foe to be subdued.  There is also a Sparring Critical table in RMC-VII (pg. 125).  Keep in mind, sometimes accidents do happen and there are death results on those tables.  My PC did it one time in tourney as a young lad.  It was a great (or terrible) roll that resulted in a plot twist for the GM to deal with. LOL. 

The Ambush skill, as written, is difficult or tricky to say the least, to get to use.  The introduction of those tables was a very welcome feature.
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Offline jdale

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2021, 11:06:30 AM »
Gaining the ability to modify the critical but only on an alternative table that has fewer lethal results but more battlefield control results (stun, knockdown, pushback, disarm, demoralize, etc) would be interesting. It has the downside of needing time for the player to pick the result but that could be interesting. There's still some randomness involved which reflects the unpredictability of combat.

I generally went the other way, the combatant can choose -- before rolling the crit -- to downgrade the crit severity in exchange for specifying a particular additional effect (like knockback etc). In that case you get your desired outcome (assuming you land a crit at all), but still keep the flavor of the original crit table and the randomness for the rest of the result, and I think it will play faster.
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2021, 05:48:34 AM »
Gaining the ability to modify the critical but only on an alternative table that has fewer lethal results but more battlefield control results (stun, knockdown, pushback, disarm, demoralize, etc) would be interesting. It has the downside of needing time for the player to pick the result but that could be interesting. There's still some randomness involved which reflects the unpredictability of combat.

For us, the player needs to declare which table he would like the attack resolved on should a crit occur.  Most choose the Stun table.  For the PCs who learned Wrestling or Tackling, the crits tend to be Grappling or Unbalance crits respectively.  The Sparring Crit table is rarely used, but yes, the unpredictability of combat exists and it's still possible for an "oops" moment and the target dies anyway.
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Offline Vince

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Re: Ambush modification
« Reply #37 on: October 16, 2021, 04:32:04 AM »
I was never happy with fighters in RM at higher levels as they become less interesting than magic users, but how we could make it more powerful without creating new rules?

At the end I have found a method that I like, the Ambush skill is becomes a combat skill and can be used in full attacks. that means a figher level 5 could have for example 5 ranks + 15 from level, that means when a critical is achieved the fighter can select  the critical in the range ±20. It the attack is stealthy (traditional ambush) you double the bonus.

I have not noticed big problems during play except that combat is slower when players have to decide which critical they want.

Feedback is appreciated.
Hi, i didn't realize who you are in this new avatar , I´ve been away too much time from the forums.

We have this "house rule" that each rank you have in your weapon add +1 to the critical roll. We created this rule apart your point about the fighters also to give more importance to put more points once each rank only add +1 to OB.  But the way we understand this kind of expertise where to hit , if the other fighter is aware and weapon-ready he can substract his own rank skill. For example, imagine one fighter has +25 ranks but he is old so he has been losing the temporary stats in STRENGHT and AGILITY , and his foe has +14 ranks but he has better stats (agi+str) so that stats give him a good OB but without some much skill . We understand with this rule that maybe OB is one thing but comparing each ranks, the oldest fighter will add +11 to the critical roll because he is more experienced altough maybe his criticals are C  and the other ones are E. So one thing is your power (OB) and another your critical placement (critical roll) .

In this "house rule" we also wanted to adjust some situations when a good fighter manages to make an surprise attack to a sleeper, unaware or similar situation and the critical is too random in a 1-100 hit in a defenceless fighter. So this defenceless fighter altough he may be an expertise with +20 ranks, if he is recieving attack unaware he will not able to substract his ranks to the critical roll. So in the same example that before the oldest fighter will add not +11, he will add his full +25 ranks to the critical roll so it´s impossible he will in the worst case more than 26 in the critical chart, but for us is logical that a expert fighter on a surprised foe will not land a critical hit apart from recieving an E critical.

We also have a limit  of 25 of maximun critical , but rarely is needed to aply . Hope is understandable in my english

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