Author Topic: closing skill (arms companion) clarifications  (Read 1174 times)

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Offline mrfantastic

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closing skill (arms companion) clarifications
« on: January 30, 2021, 08:13:49 AM »
how precisely it works ? foe can't attack u while u can attack him ? wich % of round it takes ? both side can't attack each other? pls reply  :-\

Offline mrfantastic

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Re: closing skill (arms companion) clarifications
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2021, 02:35:36 PM »
CLOSING (QU/AG) (MANEUVER)
CLOSING IS GETTING NEAR ENOUGHT TO A FOE (0-1 FOOT) TO RENDER THEIR LONG WEAPONS USELESS. THE CHARACTER WEAVEES AND LUNGES IN AN ATTEMP TO PLACE HIMSELF BETWEEN THE FOEAND HIS WEAPON. THE CHARACTER IS SOMETIMES "CHEST TO CHEST" WITH HIS FOE, OR UP AGAINST SOME OTHER PART OF THEIR BODY. WHILE ATTEMPING CLOSING, ALL NON MAGICAL DB MODIFICATIONS ARE LOST.
THE SKILL BONUS IS REDUCED BY THE FOE'S DB. THE CHARACTER MUST ROLL 101+ TO SUCCEED. FAILURE MEANS IN NO OPPORTUNIY. WITH RESULT LESS THAN 0, THE CHARACTER RECEIVE A MARTAIL ARTS STRIKES FUMBLE.

MODIFICATIONS DUE TO DEFENDER'S WEAPON SIZE:
POLE ARMS    +50
MISSILE         -30
ALL OTHER WEAPONS:
OVER 4 FEET    +35
4 FEET             +25
3 FEET             +10
2 FEET              -30
UNDER 2 FEET   -50

Offline markc

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Re: closing skill (arms companion) clarifications
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2021, 04:32:10 PM »
Thanks for the text info I will need to look at my book before providing more info but...

The idea I think is the same as you see in some martial arts in which the attacker stays close to the opponent in such a way as their weapons and other attacks and armor are not as effective.
For example the swing of an battle axe adds a lot to its kinetic energy (damage) and if you intercept the weapon very early in its arc it cannot generate as much kinetic energy.
Also some people use space required rules in RM and their are further penalties to OB/DB if you do not have that room (or skill to use the weapon in confined spaces). I think the rules I remember were house rules but I could be wrong and they are in some RM2 book.

Example: The same can be said a bit about armor if you are close to a person (more so then an animal) you with a small weapon might be able to attack a "known weak area" better then from distance.

I will try and find some time to take a look at it but right now it looks like it might be Monday or Tuesday before I have a chance.
MDC 
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
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Offline markc

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Re: closing skill (arms companion) clarifications
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2021, 05:33:53 PM »
Note have not had time to look at book but below info is from memory so it may be wrong.

A) This has been talked about in the past, so a search of the forums may provide info. But I know I have tried searches lately for past topics that I know were covered and the search yielded no results.
B) From memory (again could be wrong) I seem to remember that the info provided in the book was lacking and thus made the rule tough to use in game. By that I mean a low skill levels it was useless and at high skill levels it was vastly overpowered. Also from memory there was very little to no downside to try and use the skill in combat where as if you think about it and try and use some real world thought (Note I am not a combat artist in real life and I do not play one on the net or TV) failing the maneuver should put you in a poor position in terms of DB (ie your opponent would get a bonus to damage you based on lots of factors).
B1) So from memory, the entry needs lots of extra book space to know what the authors intention was and how they intended the skill to work.
B2) IMHO, Other skills would also need to be used with the skill. Example Animal Anatomy to know where the week points of the animals armor is and to know the animals combat strength is. Note this is two rolls IMHO not one. And it is possible different skills may be used for different types and styles of armor and weapons.
B3) Note some stuff was not tested in game and was just written by fans and professionals so "stuff" may have unforeseen issues when used with the core rules and other "companion" and "setting" rules.

Note: It is looking much more like Tuesday before I am going to be able to get the time to look at it more in depth.

MDC 
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
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Offline mrfantastic

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Re: closing skill (arms companion) clarifications
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2021, 08:47:22 AM »
ty for your time i apreciate that ;D 8)

Offline mrfantastic

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Re: closing skill (arms companion) clarifications
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2021, 08:12:22 PM »
i found the rules pag 27 arms companion "close quarter combat" ty tho

Offline markc

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Re: closing skill (arms companion) clarifications
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2021, 09:04:50 PM »
Note: Still planning on spending some time tomorrow look at the whole book for you as at times RM hides pieces of rules that are needed in different places in the book.
Yes I saw that and had about 3 min to look at it but not any time to look and think about stuff further.
1) A note at the front of the book is important and one I always forget, it is something like this "not all rules in this book are to be used at the same time..." "...as this will make low level arms professions very powerful and high level arms professions god like"
2) Note did not have a lot of time to look at this but this was my 2-10 sec recollection of paired weapon combat and I need to go back and spend some more time reading and thinking about the section.
 It also provides a note about using paired weapons on that page for another poster in the RM2 section, but IMHO that rule could be very powerful and or useless depending on how the weapon chart was built, ie some weapons are better vs plate, chain, hard leather or soft leather if you shift whole AT's you may lose power.
But if it was saying you simply read the line above your roll for damage I need to give it a lot more thought because I do not see a down side in some PC cases for not going 2 weapon combat and or using sword and shield (weapon + weapon) again for some PC's as IIRC both sword and shield have low fumble ranges.

MDC 
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
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Offline brole

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Re: closing skill (arms companion) clarifications
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2021, 06:29:02 AM »
I use defender's total DB as a modifier vs attacker's closing roll rather than weapon length in the rules.

The attacker nominates to use their closing skill instead of normal attack with their base DB for defence only.

If attacker's closing is successful then defender can only use weapon brawl &/or martial arts, (or attempt to flee). Without these auxiliary attacks the defender has no OB or DB.

% OB of attack following successful closing depends on movement expended.

Initiative determines sequence of events.

e crits all round

Offline markc

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Re: closing skill (arms companion) clarifications
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2021, 05:27:26 PM »
Unfortunately my planned 3 hours to look at the book was cut to about 10 min.
Important pages in RM2 AC
1) pg 27, close quarters combat section
2) pg 70, closing skill
Important Facts:
a) No DB from all non-magical sources
b) Qu/Ag Maneuver
c) it seems once you get "close" or are in close quarters combat you get no Qu bonus to DB but other skills such as Adrenal Defense can be used.

Problem Areas to me are:
1) Needs additional mods for wearing armor for skill, needs mods for creatures and mods for having more combat knowledge then the close skill user.
2) Problem areas to me are as skill is written:
a) How to you break away from close quarters combat? And what are the mods? Is it simply just moving away and thus causing a new close maneuver skill roll or is there more involved?
b) When you are close the close person gets to use AD and is only penalized Qu bonus.
c) Mods for close are very beneficial if you use targeting locations.
d) Possible Problem areas: May be more or less of an issue depending on what combat system, skills and house rules you are using. Problems with spells and magic items that allow you to break the skill and combat.
e) Looked again at CQC mods and +30 OB is huge and the close-er does not seem to have mods for what weapon they are using.

What I would do:
I would not allow the skill and would use AD instead.

Fix:
I think you need to completely rewrite the skill to use it in any way, with example of how it works and. Mods need to be completely redone with lots of more factors included as well as possibly opposed roll or rolls every round.
Testing needs to be done and then refine the system as necessary looking at how the skill is used in the following areas; your combat system, other skills and skill combos, DP analysis vs Professions (who will take the skill and who will not, who benefits the most and the least), use with spells and magic items.
Note: DP in RM2 are generally tight so who is going to take the skill? Are you using alternate DP rules from RM2 Core? What number it take to be good at the skill and use it in combat?

Hope that helps but I have run out of time.
MDC         
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

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Re: closing skill (arms companion) clarifications
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2021, 06:06:29 PM »
In my time crunch I forgot the most important thing.
Space and Spacing:
A) In the past when people have talked about RM combat you talk about being in the square (ie (to keep it metric) squares tend to be 1m, 2m or 3 m on a side) and the attacker and defender are somewhere in that square. In general you have to be with in your weapons range to attack the defender, so generally attackers square must touch defenders with a small or med weapon and longer weapons can be 1 square away (again generalization).
So since the defender and attacker are just somewhere in the square then maneuvers that deal with spacing in combat are also generalized and thus become a problem.
B) The Close skill requires better tracking of space then RM2 generally takes into account thus the skill may be a problem. IMHO the "close" skill user probably should be required to move 1 or more squares per round and spacing mods should be taken into account when using the close skill.
C) To me tracking endurance is very important when using skills like this to try and keep some balance when using it. If you do not track endurance then it is more likely going to be a problem at some point.

Note: You can use other things besides squares above, hex's, etc and if you use no grid and just free form it in your mind this could be an issue depending on how everyone is at visualizing space.
Note: Most of my experience with skills like close come from games, thinking and use the skill in games, movies and a couple of martial arts documentaries. I am not a combat arts practitioner and consulting with one would be a huge help when designing and or using martial arts type skills in games.

MDC     
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

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Re: closing skill (arms companion) clarifications
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2021, 06:48:03 PM »
Another problem area's:
How do you deal with others attacking (melee, missile, Dir Spell, AoE spell(example below)) the target if their is a person who is "close" or using the "close" skill?
Can their be more then 1 person using the close skill on the same target?
AoE spells and abilities, are the modified by having a close situation? ie I use close to move under a dragon and that round a party member casts an AoE Elemental spell does the person under the dragon take damage? If they have to roll what are the mods?

MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline mrfantastic

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Re: closing skill (arms companion) clarifications
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2021, 10:17:27 AM »
Problem Areas to me are:
1) Needs additional mods for wearing armor for skill (i think not its a maneuver still get armor penalty), needs mods for creatures and mods for having more combat knowledge then the close skill user.(gm discretcion)
2) Problem areas to me are as skill is written:
a) How to you break away from close quarters combat? (simply move away)
 And what are the mods? if u get % of rnd remaining u can evade from combat doing and opposit moving maneuver with foe if u win u break free if foe win get an open attack to u then u can move (or viceversa)
 Is it simply just moving away and thus causing a new close maneuver skill roll or is there more involved? (personally i think closing skill shoulda be roll every round independentely if foe move or not)
b) When you are close the close person gets to use AD and is only penalized Qu bonus. (closing skill states u get only magic db , but i will let it at gm discretcion)
c) Mods for close are very beneficial if you use targeting locations. (i don't admit targeting skill)
d) Possible Problem areas: May be more or less of an issue depending on what combat system, skills and house rules you are using. Problems with spells and magic items that allow you to break the skill and combat.
e) Looked again at CQC mods and +30 OB is huge and the close-er does not seem to have mods for what weapon they are using. (they can use weapon brawling with no penalty) and since CQC says weapon longer than 2 ft... well if foe doesn't use such weapons he get no ob penalty but still remain 1/2 quickness bonus for db but i think he can parry or the skill simply has no effect and can be used only if foe get weapon over 2 ft and over 3 ft my personal opinion....

Offline mrfantastic

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Re: closing skill (arms companion) clarifications
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2021, 10:35:01 AM »
Another problem area's:
How do you deal with others attacking (melee, missile, Dir Spell, AoE spell(example below)) the target if their is a person who is "close" or using the "close" skill? PERSONALLY I THINK MALUS/BONUS ARE  ONLY FOR THOSE ENGAGED IN THE CONTEXST OF THE SKILL FOR ALL OTHER PARTECIPANTS IN THE FIGHT BOTH TARGETS GETS NORMAL DB
Can their be more then 1 person using the close skill on the same target? MAYBE YES 1 VS 1 MEDIUM,2 VS 1 LARGE 4 VS 1 SUPER LARGE
AoE spells and abilities, are the modified by having a close situation? ie I use close to move under a dragon and that round a party member casts an AoE Elemental spell does the person under the dragon take damage? If they have to roll what are the mods? I DONT HAVE THAT ISSUE I USE PHASES, SO SPELL PHASE COMES 1ST RESPECT MANEUVER PHASE IN THE RND BUT IN AN EVENTUALLY OPPORTUNITY SPELL PHASE CASTED AT THE END OF MANEUVER PHASE, IF THE SPELL TARGET EVEN THE PLAYER USING CLOSING SKILL HE TAKE THE DAMAGE, AND SINCE WE USING PHASES AT THE END OF MANEUVER PHASE NO ONE CAN'T MOVE AGAIN UNLESS A % STILL REMAIN AND HE MAKE A SUCCESSFUL ORIENTATION ROLL.


Offline markc

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Re: closing skill (arms companion) clarifications
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2021, 04:39:46 PM »
Problem Areas to me are:
1) Needs additional mods for wearing armor for skill (i think not its a maneuver still get armor penalty), needs mods for creatures and mods for having more combat knowledge then the close skill user.(gm discretcion)
2) Problem areas to me are as skill is written:
a) How to you break away from close quarters combat? (simply move away)
 And what are the mods? if u get % of rnd remaining u can evade from combat doing and opposit moving maneuver with foe if u win u break free if foe win get an open attack to u then u can move (or viceversa)
 Is it simply just moving away and thus causing a new close maneuver skill roll or is there more involved? (personally i think closing skill shoulda be roll every round independentely if foe move or not)
b) When you are close the close person gets to use AD and is only penalized Qu bonus. (closing skill states u get only magic db , but i will let it at gm discretcion)
c) Mods for close are very beneficial if you use targeting locations. (i don't admit targeting skill)
d) Possible Problem areas: May be more or less of an issue depending on what combat system, skills and house rules you are using. Problems with spells and magic items that allow you to break the skill and combat.
e) Looked again at CQC mods and +30 OB is huge and the close-er does not seem to have mods for what weapon they are using. (they can use weapon brawling with no penalty) and since CQC says weapon longer than 2 ft... well if foe doesn't use such weapons he get no ob penalty but still remain 1/2 quickness bonus for db but i think he can parry or the skill simply has no effect and can be used only if foe get weapon over 2 ft and over 3 ft my personal opinion....

1) I question if you have to make a "close" maneuver roll every round, if you do it does solve some issues above. But again quite often things in RM Companions were fan based and not tested at all or tested with specific house rules in which they worked. Also as I am sure you know there are many different types of games and players. All of those can have a huge difference in the way a skill would work or not work in a game.
2) IMHO it is better to define things for GMs and players as I have seen vastly different opinions on things if the book does not do so.

MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

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Re: closing skill (arms companion) clarifications
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2021, 04:46:55 PM »
Another problem area's:
How do you deal with others attacking (melee, missile, Dir Spell, AoE spell(example below)) the target if their is a person who is "close" or using the "close" skill? PERSONALLY I THINK MALUS/BONUS ARE  ONLY FOR THOSE ENGAGED IN THE CONTEXST OF THE SKILL FOR ALL OTHER PARTECIPANTS IN THE FIGHT BOTH TARGETS GETS NORMAL DB
Can their be more then 1 person using the close skill on the same target? MAYBE YES 1 VS 1 MEDIUM,2 VS 1 LARGE 4 VS 1 SUPER LARGE
AoE spells and abilities, are the modified by having a close situation? ie I use close to move under a dragon and that round a party member casts an AoE Elemental spell does the person under the dragon take damage? If they have to roll what are the mods? I DONT HAVE THAT ISSUE I USE PHASES, SO SPELL PHASE COMES 1ST RESPECT MANEUVER PHASE IN THE RND BUT IN AN EVENTUALLY OPPORTUNITY SPELL PHASE CASTED AT THE END OF MANEUVER PHASE, IF THE SPELL TARGET EVEN THE PLAYER USING CLOSING SKILL HE TAKE THE DAMAGE, AND SINCE WE USING PHASES AT THE END OF MANEUVER PHASE NO ONE CAN'T MOVE AGAIN UNLESS A % STILL REMAIN AND HE MAKE A SUCCESSFUL ORIENTATION ROLL.



General:
Again things need to be defined a lot better and then tested to see if the skill is a super skill, a powerful niche spell or worthless.
I can see thematically and narratively why you would want a skill like this but IMHO it can/could take a lot of time each time you go through all of the options at the table.

I think the issue with moving and spells with "close"  is as follows, if you are in the same square as your opponent then your opponent should get a DB bonus to not be hit and the people who are attacking him should have a chance to hit the person who is in the same square.
Note: combat systems can be manipulated to the benefits of players and or monsters and it is something I try to avoid in what ever game I play.

MDC     
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.