Author Topic: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)  (Read 1909 times)

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Offline r0bperry

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Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« on: November 20, 2020, 06:41:41 AM »
Rolemaster 2E / Classic
A player came into possession of a weapon that could potentially deliver multiple criticals at once. It is a +20 Magical Holy Mace of Undead Slaying, made with spikes of Mythril.
When used to attack an undead creature that can only be hit with magical weapons and delivers a critical I am looking at potentially 5 different criticals. I was looking for guidance on where I can find rules on what criticals would stack and which would not, or if some criticals might cancel each other out and only use some of the criticals. If it's a GM thing then fine. But I thought that somewhere it was listed when I looked into this years ago.
My thoughts are to let the Player choose which criticals can be applied but limit the number, though I think this might be cheating the PC who came into possession of a cool holy weapon. I know that some criticals go above the standard A-E and they have you roll on multiple tables for the end critical. If this falls into this category fine. But I am sure I remember something along these lines from research years ago.

Any help would be great

 

Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2020, 08:29:43 AM »
There are few times when multiple criticals will happen:

1. If the weapon specifically says it deals an additional one. For instance: flaming swords. Some of these specify they use different rolls. If not, they use the same roll (though that's up to GM interpretation as I don't remember if it's actually spelled out anywhere).

2. Slaying criticals against man-sized creatures. These do their normal crit and an additional crit on the large slaying table.

Everywhere else you use the most favorable option (only roll one.)
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Offline markc

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2020, 12:48:43 PM »
If you are asking if holy and mithril crits stack, IMHO it depends on the weapon description, creature and game world.


Some weapons as described above deliver an additional crit, such as a weapon that has a fire blade, in some you take the best of the two crits (by not saying additional crit). In some the author has not made the distinction or an error and you have to make a ruling for your game. 


I wish there was a simple this answer works in every case but in older products (RoCo and MERP material) it takes a lot more work to try and figure out what the author wanted to acomplish.


For your mace of disruption idea above, I would have the weapon do mithril crits and then if the target is undead then also holy crits.


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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2020, 02:02:27 PM »
In your example, the player (one would assume) opts for the best crit category - Slaying when fighting Undead.

vs. Undead, the player would opt for the "Slaying crit" as it is higher than a Mithril or Holy Crit.  As Ginger McMurray stated, the Slaying Crit against man sized creatures resolves the normal crit and an additional Slaying crit on the appropriate Large Creature Slaying category.  (AL&CL pg 19)  Against a man-sized Undead, there are only 2 crits delivered.

vs. Large or Super Large Undead, only 1 crit is delivered and resolved on the Large or Super Large Slaying Crit table.

vs. a normal creature or human, only 1 crit is delivered with the +20 added to the attack.

vs. evil creatures, the Holy Crit tables would be used with same criterion as above for "Slaying vs. Man Sized" (normal crit plus additional roll on the Large Creature Holy Crit).

vs. Large and Super Large creatures (not Undead) I would argue the Mithril crit table is used, but one can also argue the Holy table is used as the weapon is Holy.  Is the weapon Holy vs. a particular creature though?  Is it Holy vs. Large Creatures?  Holy vs. Evil Creatures?  If so, then the crit is resolved on the Mithril table for all other Large/Super Large and the Holy Table only for creatures it is considered Holy against.  Either way, it's still only 1 crit.

What is the actual item name?  It would help clarify some details.  Is it GM-treasure or one from a Companion or Creatures and Treasures book?  It has all of the Large/Super Large crit categories covered. 

If the weapon description states "Also does a crit of <Heat>" then an addition Heat Crit would be rolled.  The weapon description should also state that the additional crit is "additional crit same roll" or "additional crit separate roll."


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Offline Majyk

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2020, 07:32:31 PM »
To keep battles against BBEGs lasting more than one round, I only allowed the highest table/column a weapon would possess.

So if something was flaming, it wouldn’t give both a mundane(K,P,S) crit but just a Heat one.

When having multiple crit abilities, if you want to have uber weaponry one-hitting things, reroll on each table/column.

Offline r0bperry

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2020, 09:47:16 AM »
Thanks for all the input from above.
For clarity, the weapon was a conversion from a D&D weapon that was a paladin weapon of power, that was a Mythril Holy relic that performed Slaying against the Undead. Through looking at similar items through both Cr&Tr as well as MERP Treasures, I determined that the weapon would have slaying and holy weapon properties. That it was made with Mythirl was in the description. The Player recently used it against a pack of lvl 1 undead and they were going down as one per swing, which isn't saying much, but the critical I think might have been excessive.
What I was looking for was guidance on if there is a set limit as to how many critical can be applied per weapon even when it doesn't say within the weapon description. Also if the weapon delivered a D Crush critical would that still be rolled or would the Slaying Undead critical, or Holy critical, or the Mythril critical, take residence. I would like to tell the player that only one or two critical would apply, maybe by player choice, but not all.
However, this rule, as pointed out above, does not seem to exist in any of the texts I have read.
Oh well, thanks for the input. Please respond if you have anything to add or something new to say.

Offline Jengada

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2020, 10:15:47 AM »

2. Slaying criticals against man-sized creatures. These do their normal crit and an additional crit on the large slaying table.

Everywhere else you use the most favorable option (only roll one.)
I just learned something! I had never seen this rule, but then I never had a weapon that was slaying against man-sized creatures in my game. It apparently is inconsistently stated in the books. My RM1 AL&CL doesn't state this, nor does my RM2 Spell Law section on slaying criticals. But I see it does appear in the RM2 AL&CL.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2020, 10:57:30 AM »
To my knowledge, there is no hard limit to the number of criticals that a weapon can do. Some of the artifacts in the Lords of Middle Earth volumes, IIRC, did tons of extra criticals.

Slaying criticals are extra criticals that are rolled in addition to the normal (e.g. slashing, crush) critical of the weapon. This is from Arms Law & Claw Law (red band edition, #1100, section 6.4.2, pp. 18-19). The text specifies what Ginger McMurray noted: that slaying criticals against 'man-sized' creatures are rolled in addition to the normal critical.

What the rules don't seem to specify is whether this rule also applies to Holy, Mithril, or other types of criticals that weapons can do. We assumed that the same rule applies to them, and this makes more sense to me. I say this because if it were not the case, low rolls with Mithril/Holy weapons would be worse than normal criticals. If you take a look at the Large Creature critical chart, rolls as high as 50 produce just extra hits damage, but a 50 on an E Slash would stun foe two rounds and result in an injury (-15 penalty). It doesn't make much sense to me if a Holy weapon did less damage than a normal weapon.

As for other types of criticals such as fire, sometimes the weapon will specify whether it does 'extra' criticals or not. In the original Creatures and Treasures, for example, p. 73, the weapon Noril is said to do 'an addtional' heat critical. In that case, I think it is clear that the weapon is supposed to do a normal critical and an additional one on top. When it is not specified, I think it is a case of GM judgment.

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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2020, 01:54:20 AM »
This is how I'd rule it as a GM:
Vs.:
  • Normal creatures: normal weapon CC + LA holy CC,
  • Normal undead: normal weapon CC + LA slaying CC,
  • LA and SL normal creatures: appropriate holy CC,
  • LA and SL undead: appropriate slaying CC.
Note that I don't ever use the mithril CC, as it's irrelevant against normal size creatures and superseded by either the holy or slaying CC against LA and SL creatures. Now, if you think that, then, it's useless, remember that a mithril weapon adds +20 OB so it is in fact not.
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2020, 01:28:47 PM »
]Note that I don't ever use the mithril CC, as it's irrelevant against normal size creatures and superseded by either the holy or slaying CC against LA and SL creatures. Now, if you think that, then, it's useless, remember that a mithril weapon adds +20 OB so it is in fact not.

That's also how I would do it. It's rules as written. It's just that those rules are not very well organized.

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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2020, 04:09:30 PM »
It's rules as written.
I'd say the very existence of this thread would lead one to think that the matter tends not to appear that obvious~
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2020, 10:50:20 PM »
Unfortunately "as written" and obvious are often not synonymous when talking about Rolemaster.
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Offline markc

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2020, 10:53:32 PM »
1) For a long time no one at ICE could discuss any Middle Earth stuff do to legal stuff between ICE and the people who held/hold the rights. So I was told when I first came on the boards back in the late 90's.
2) I know of no official rule for this case but I know quite a few house rules. If you are interested in them you should do a search of the forums as I am sure they are listed (unless the topics were removed for some reason).
3) The questions asked by the OP has come up many times in the past with some of them resulting in locked threads do to 1) above.


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Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2020, 08:34:07 AM »
The OP never mentions middle earth. How do questions about critical get threads locked?
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Offline markc

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2020, 02:11:44 PM »
In the past this question almost always came with the MERP title associated with it and I was instructed as the ICE mod to deal with threads by locking them to avoid any legal issues.


1) Often the question above comes from material converted from D&D or I think there was one weapon in RM2 CT that also had an issue (but I do not remember what is is at this time).
2) Mithril crits: In the past I have answered the Q in this way, How powerful/special is mithril in your game and how powerful do you think the mithril crits are? Note the last part is because in the past there have been a couple of people who thought that the mithril cits were a non issue and others who thought that they were valid.
a) If you think mithril is a powerful magical metal then you also add a mithril crit to your normal crit and or any other crit it would apply to (note I have seen a lot of house rules on what to do for non normal sized creatures and even a house rule that you always add an mithril crit to any damage roll).
b) If mithril is less then a super metal then you do less then the above to fit your game, with lots of options and permutations depending on the level of detail you want and often if you use the RM2 EC special material properties and elemental forging rules.


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Offline Hurin

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2020, 03:19:56 PM »
I never really saw the need for a Mithril category, since there is already a Magic category.
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Offline markc

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2020, 04:50:05 PM »
In the past quite a few "light RM" games have eliminated a lot of rules and charts, the mithril table has often been one of them depending on the game world the GM is running.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2020, 04:00:38 AM »
I personally see the mithril category as a "naturally magical material" category and use it for all such materials whose bonus is +20 or more, whereas the magic category is for weapons enchanted by spells.
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline markc

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2020, 06:24:51 AM »
I could be wrong but I seem to remember these things:
a) Different versions of MERP basic rules had some different rules for mithril. In one I think mithril provided a bonus to L and SL crits and in others it did not.
b) There was some shifting of rules of the materials from various ME products, ie Tres of ME, Moria, Lorian, etc. 


RM2 EC:
In the book above when mithril is forged in the elemental forge it gets extra fire stuff and the metal is earth-fire based.


In general I think they all can be true based on your game world and the book or books you have. In the terms of MERP I think they were trying to keep things simple and then in later books they decided to change things. In RM2 EC it is not ME so they decided to do something else.


An important point in your game would be is mithril an alloy or an element and does it take magic to make it or is it a magic material. Those questions in my mind are fundamental to how you should rule on the material.


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Offline markc

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Re: Stacking Criticals (Rolemaster 2E / Classic)
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2020, 03:39:13 PM »
I did a quick look at RM2 red CL, RM2 Alch Com, and the MERP books T of ME, Lorian, Lords of Middle Earth I (looked at I but not II or III) and here is some quick info.


Note: From memory items in RM2 C&T and RoCo's were fan submitted and some do not conform to the item creation rules.


1) In general I found the rules in RM2 Alch Com to be the best and I would have those supersede all other rules in other books.
2) special abilities often say, do crits or do additional crits of X type. This has lead to confusion in the past with no official rule as I remember. ie the case of holy could be interpreted as it you hit you do a holy crit no matter what or you substitute holy crits for any crit you would do or if you think the text as a mistake and should say does an additional holy crit you use that reading.
3) Rules can be confusing when using material from RM2 EC, Alch comp and MERP together, so you have to make decisions based on you game.




I can say that I depending on how special I want mithril to be in my game world either, (high power) do an additional mirthril crit on an attack that does damage or on the low end you can pick either the crit you rolled or the same crit on the mithril chart.
Generally enchantments add crits and do not necessarily replace crits, the one exception I know of is when a weapons damaging area is replaced by an element, ie a sword blade is replaced by elemental fire.
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.