Author Topic: RM2 Spell questions  (Read 3734 times)

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Offline Hurin

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2021, 11:00:35 AM »

Note however, that (even if hasted), you can only cast one spell per round. That can get tricky. If the Paladin plans to attack and uses its Strike* spell, he cannot react to a sudden attack with a bladeturn/deflection (both instant too) . If he just announces a normal swing, he could do that.

...

The idea of a Paladin standing in front row holding off attacking enemys on weapon's point and then PAUSING one round (100% death penalty because he has no parry)  to cast an instant spell never made any sense to us.


That's why Paladins were not in the original core rules, but rather introduced later in Companion I (with further spells coming later still). In the same Companion I was where you find the first alternate initiative/action system as well. It seems the Paladin spells were designed with the new initiative/action system in mind, and didn't really fit very well with the old system. You don't find many (perhaps any?) instant +OB spells in the original Spell Law, I believe for that very reason. In fact you don't find any Paladin spells that do that either in Companion I; they were introduced only as additional Paladin spells in Companion II.

I don't think anyone ever envisioned the Paladin taking rounds off to cast Instantaneous spells. By the same token, the bonus from spells like Bladeturn and Deflections was set so high (-100 to the attack) that it seems clear they were in fact intended to virtually completely negate an attack, and were thus intended to be almost your whole activity for the turn; they weren't intended to be taken with a full OB attack on top. They saved your life-- they didn't allow you to do two full actions (entirely negating an opponent's attack and getting a full attack of your own) at once.

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Offline Sokrates

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2021, 04:21:47 AM »
By the same token, the bonus from spells like Bladeturn and Deflections was set so high (-100 to the attack) that it seems clear they were in fact intended to virtually completely negate an attack, and were thus intended to be almost your whole activity for the turn; they weren't intended to be taken with a full OB attack on top. They saved your life-- they didn't allow you to do two full actions (entirely negating an opponent's attack and getting a full attack of your own) at once.
I dont really see a problem here. Pure Arms user can use Adrenal Move Speed to get 2 attacks out (and those can be used to eat up an opponents parry and then get a "free" swing, or parry and attack) or just come with multiple attacks right away. Even the combination is possible. Usual practice for Martial Arts users (4 attacks wohoah).
So why not give a semi spell user or any character with the support of a magic user the chance to magically turn one of those attacks and maybe parry the other and see another day. It again burns magic points fast (Bladeturn/Deflection are considerably higher level spells) and if not cast on self but others basically takes the magic user out of the offensive.

We never really encounterd an instant spell, which should be slower. They are usually utility/defensive. If not, we figured they should not normal spells (Adrenal Focus of the NIghtblade, would not really work as a regular spell, ass the +attack Spells).

Sometimes having the Instant* Spell on a Base List is from my point of view the gadget of that given class, compared to non instant,in effect comparable, spells on open/closed lists. I have no example right now by heart, but I remember that we looked into comparisons like that several times in the last 35 years.

I personally think its kind of fun, if the usual semi spell user, who finds himself in as surprising combat situation, needs some rounds to get the defense and support for buddies up (Shield, Blur, Aura.... ). Makes a big difference to the prepared situation where the situations turns around and a pure arms opponent better parries till some gadget spells wear off the first time. 




Offline brole

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2021, 05:41:59 AM »
So in general these spells were meant to be buffs you cast before attacking rather than buffs you cast while attacking.
Yes that is my take on it that these were designed as combat preparation.
So for example a Paladin makes the sign of their holy symbol while offering a prayer before combat to cast their spell.
(For Channeling spells, the caster is assumed to have one hand free, is able to speak clearly,) RMC SL p25.

Quote from RMC I p106:
"COMBAT
Essentially, it is assumed that if a character is engaged, then he is in a combat situation. A player in combat also assumes that other actions cannot be performed such as spell casting..."

Some of the Beastmaster spells have 100' range and a target. Here the Beastmaster stands back and buffs their animal minion that is in combat, e.g. Bladeturn.

Other semi-spell users might make a maneuver to get themselves out of combat to re-buff.
And of course if foe is down, a re-buff is able to happen.

e crits all round

Offline Hurin

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2021, 08:48:07 AM »
Yes, and I'm just pointing out that the core RM2 rules lacked a category similar to what D&D currently calls a 'bonus action' spell: that is, a spell meant to be cast while you also make a full OB attack (e.g. Paladin Smites). The thing that prevented that in the core RM2 rules was that the minimum casting cost for a spell (even an instantaneous spell) was 75% (or 50% if you use the optional rule).

This was why RM2 Companions and then later editions of RM (RMSS/FRP and now RMU) successively reduced the cost of instantaneous spells and introduced spells designed to function as buffs cast while taking full or close to full attacks.

I am cool with that. I think it is good that there is a class of spells you can cast for little to no activity, as buffs -- these are especially useful for Semis like the Paladin. It is just important to note that there are some original core spells that need to be rebalanced, and possibly changed to be no longer 'instant', now that the definition of instant has changed and the activity cost of casting the spell has been essentially eliminated. Some attack spells, especially area of effect attack spells, should no longer be instant if instants cost 0% activity, because they were never intended to allow you to get two attacks per round, or make mass, area-of-effect attacks for 0% activity.

(Note the case with Adrenal Moves is not entirely analogous. Adrenal Moves take a round of preparation, whereas an Instant spell by definition does not).
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline markc

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2021, 04:22:30 PM »
Sokrates,
Cab you explain further "use up opponents parry and then get a free swing"?

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Offline markc

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2021, 04:36:22 PM »
In General:
I used to game with some of the authors that wrote stuff for RoCo (1-3) I am not going to go into more detail as they do not want to be known, but in general I can say that they created a custom combat system that used the ideas like instant spells and then another combat system that had other ideas incorporated in it.

Some of the ideas in the RoCo's say that they are to be used with specific combat systems.

In general I think that most if not all combat systems have somethings they do not do well and others that they do very well and your group needs to find the one the works for them.

I also think that combat has come a long way from the 80's and ideas such as opportunity attacks, interruption of spell casting, knockback and other ideas can be tough to implement in some of the older RM combat systems or I should say I do not think all of the modern ideas can be easily adapted to the RAW combat systems in the past books.

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Offline Hurin

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2021, 07:02:26 PM »
Thanks for that insight Marc. It helps us to understand why so many of those spells from the companions don't seem to work with the core rules!
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline markc

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2021, 07:33:02 PM »
Its Mark and then a C, Marc is someone else and his last name begins with an R, IIRC.
MDC
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Offline Hurin

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2021, 03:15:58 AM »
Thanks for the insight Markc
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2021, 09:33:34 AM »
I also think that combat has come a long way from the 80's and ideas such as opportunity attacks, interruption of spell casting, knockback and other ideas can be tough to implement in some of the older RM combat systems or I should say I do not think all of the modern ideas can be easily adapted to the RAW combat systems in the past books.
All hail RMU?
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Malim

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2021, 02:26:12 PM »
Yes all hail.. well... I just dont like that I dont get my level bonuses. It seems ill be very focused on few skills and very narrow in my development.. From what ive seen of RMU I sadly ( yes sadly) rather wanna play 5e.
Sir Elor Blacke knight of Helyssa, Kytari Fighter lvl 25 (RM2)
Malim Naruum, Yinka Lord Bashkor lvl 27  (RM2)

Offline markc

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2021, 03:12:54 PM »
I did not see anything in RMU B1 or B2 that really fixes the issue, they had rules but to me and others they did not really make sense.
I reserve judgment for RMU-JDE (RMU-J Dale Edition as I am treating it as if it is entirely new).
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Offline jdale

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2021, 05:05:47 PM »
If you play by phases in RMU, you can interrupt spellcasting just by making a quick attack (e.g. 2 AP) that gets resolved before the spellcasting is finished. There's no interruption per se but a lot of attack results will make casting harder or impossible. There are also some rules handling attacks against people moving through your space.

There's nothing about knockback in A&CL but it will appear in the fighting styles in the character companion, along with a lot of other combat options. Which reminds me I need to post something about companions....


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Offline markc

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Re: RM2 Spell questions
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2021, 02:26:17 PM »
If you play by phases in RMU, you can interrupt spellcasting just by making a quick attack (e.g. 2 AP) that gets resolved before the spellcasting is finished. There's no interruption per se but a lot of attack results will make casting harder or impossible. There are also some rules handling attacks against people moving through your space.

There's nothing about knockback in A&CL but it will appear in the fighting styles in the character companion, along with a lot of other combat options. Which reminds me I need to post something about companions....




1) Thank all deities,  my quote button works again since the web site move.

In general I have found that when something has not appeared in RM2 or other RM and then their is a rule in RMU people generally assume that means RMU is better.
In general I still see RM2 Cores combat (with all of its issues) better then RMU B1 or RMUB2 combat system. I know nothing about RMU-JDE

That is not the case in RMU B1 or RMU B2 as I feel as I have stated before RM2's Core combat system is better then RMU B1-2.
As I said above I know nothing about the change to the RMU system since JDale took over so I cannot comment on that system.

MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.