Topic: How does Demonic Possesion actually work?

[Hurin]

I would have a problem with it if it were on a normal spell list. But I don't have a problem with it because it is on an Evil list, and Evil lists are just plain stronger, by design.

[Malim]

The Sorcerer spell is lvl 2 and you can make an RR every other round, now we are were its reasonable.
The Evil Mentalist is lvl 5 and you can make an RR once/day.

That pretty much sums up the difference between regular spell lists and Evil spell lists. Extremely long durations are common across many of the evil spell lists, including permanent effects. This sort of thing is why it's so important that there is a meaningful cost to using the Evil lists.

But the cost... well if its an encounter then the NPC doesn't "care" about the cost.. Its an evil person anyway!
I just feel the balance is way of here sadly. So much way of its a game breaker.
We did a example.
A lvl 2 sorcerer vs a lvl 12 archer. at range 50.
Chances that the archer is taken out by the spell is bigger then the other way around.... And that is if the archer doesn't get a minus on his RR.

[markc]

IMHO, this is a remnant from Middle Earth type settings in which it is very rare to find/summon/etc demonic entities. The same can be said of necromancy type spells, ie casters summoning and creating undead is very rare vs naturally occurring undead which can be more common.


My advice: Do not use the evil spell lists in your game as they are causing a problem.


MDC

[jdale]

But the cost... well if its an encounter then the NPC doesn't "care" about the cost.. Its an evil person anyway!

If it's an NPC then the GM should be making the judgment call about what the NPC does, why, and how. Did the GM in this case use a severe spell against the party? Sure. Is the GM throwing unbalanced encounters against the party? This is a level 8 NPC going up against a level 21 party. I don't know the context, but that sure doesn't sound problematic to me.

[Ginger McMurray]

But the cost... well if its an encounter then the NPC doesn't "care" about the cost.. Its an evil person anyway!

If it's an NPC then the GM should be making the judgment call about what the NPC does, why, and how. Did the GM in this case use a severe spell against the party? Sure. Is the GM throwing unbalanced encounters against the party? This is a level 8 NPC going up against a level 21 party. I don't know the context, but that sure doesn't sound problematic to me.

This here. It depends a lot on the cost. For instance, I think we can agree that Sauron is pretty evil. Using high level evil magic and gaining the attention of powerful foes is something he absolutely cares about. If NPCs are just meat sacks with no motivations than that's more of an issue than the evil lists.

I think the long story short version is "if evil lists are problematic for the game then either remove them or modify them." This should involve a discussion between GMs and players.

In my campaign most evil NPCs, even the spellcasters, aren't members of the "Evil" classes. you can have an evil cleric without have an "Evil Cleric." When the party comes up against someone who is actually tapping into that dark well of power they know the feces is about to hit the oscillating air relocation system. It keeps those foes mysterious and scary. It also imparts a measure of caution because you don't know if the spellcaster you're hunting down can replace your mind with a demon's or not.

[Malim]

@Jdale If we isolate the spell it self without looking at who is casting it. A lvl 5 spell shouldnt be able to take out a foe for that long. I have a hard time finding oter spells with a 24 hour effect like that one. with such severe outcome.
I might be wrong, but as someone wrote earlier, the RR table has a huge "drop" after you become lvl 15.

[PiXeL01]

It’s a single day. Healing takes longer. I really do not see the problem. Shock bolt is lvl 2 and take kill that’s permanent. Other spells have the same effect - death.

Demonic possession keep you alive at least and you have a chance to track It constantly. Other spells have a duration (charms etc.) and you won’t have the opportunity to get rid of the effect until duration has ended.

I’m sorry, but I see this discussion more as a response from person hit with extrem bad luck than anything constructive

[markc]

1) All spells are not created equal
2) In later versions or spell law (RMSS and beyond) I seem to remember a section talking about evil spell lists in general but that also may be in GM Law or other such book.  And in the section they leave it up to the GM to make decisions about how they work and describe how in general they are more powerful then the other lists.
Again "power" can be a term that is argued about about what does it mean.


In general in my game:
Evil spell lists that are used have negative impacts in other ways on the person using them. I am not going to expand further on how.


MDC

[jdale]

Other things you could do with 5th level evil spells include permanently lowering a stat by 5, subvert two personality traits for 1 day/5fail, blank out memory of the last 100 minutes, cause the target to panic and flee in every personally dangerous situation forever, or rot someone's tongue out.

At least this one you get another RR the next day. That Panic spell on Mind Disease will make you useless in every combat and even every dangerous situation for the rest of your life.

The evil lists are very powerful.

[rdanhenry]

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you, it will.

[Ginger McMurray]

Last night's session was going to be a standard "storm the evil temple" night. Instead 2 of the 6 party members surprised the rest by waylaying one of the other characters.

The why: she's wearing a crown which contains the spirit of an ancient evil archmage. She's been using clearly evil spells (necromancy, possession) in fights, but only to ever help the party. The character isn't evil but is pragmatic and doesn't understand the source of the power she's tapped in to. Ever time it comes up she evades the questions. They were super suspicious.

The what: they hit her with a suggestion "let us tie you up." It works, but that does nothing to stop a mentalist from hitting you with a whammy or twelve. Lots of mind control attempts back and forth. Nobody is using anything lethal. The only actual hit point damage was via pain / agony spells.

Eventually she gets tired of being ganged up on. She lets the spirit out "just a little" and it uses higher level spells to try an get them off of her. That doesn't work, though they do finally see the crown which she's kept hidden. This comes complete with black flames dripping from it and flickering shadows in her eyes. It spooks the party and one of the "less cerebral" characters gets the idea she should try to shoot the crown off with an arrow.

She's been trying to explain that she has the entity held in check but that dire doodoo happens if it gets free so they should leave her alone. She points out she's never done anything but help the party hunt down and destroy the cult of Morgoth they're fighting.

The hitting of the fan: Arrow flies at head... She says "fudge it." Bad guy is let free. PC's psyche is trapped in a cage inside her own soul. Party member who shot the arrow is possessed by a Type III demon (save every 10 minutes). Party member who used suggestion is hit with permanent paranoia. Hilarity (at least IMO) ensues.

I gave the player the demon's personality traits. She's kinda slow and didn't really understand what I meant for about ten minutes, thinking she now had the powers of a demon for her normal character. In the end she got it but couldn't figure out how best to roleplay an entity which has been trapped in an eternal void for millenia and is now experiencing sensation for the first time in a loooong time. Since she was already wracked with pain from the agony spells I had it go buck wild mixing sensations. She dropped to the ground and ore up some grass. One hand scratched painful furrows into an arm while she gently tickled the other arm with the grass.

Lady with crown breaks free and pushes the archmage back down. The demon is still three but isn't violent so they distract it with a myriad number of sensations and toss her in a cart to take and find an exorcist. She breaks out of it a few hours later.

The aftermath: Now the PC with the crown has left the group but still needs their help to storm the temple. The archmage has offered her power and revenge in exchange for tearing down the interlopers who has coopted his old fortress. She uses Necromancy to create a ghost and sends it out to be an emissary and attempt to start a dialog.

That was much more interesting than a couple of lines of temple soldiers guarding a couple of priests and some archers.

Up until now the crown was basically an intelligent item. Now I get to actually stat up the mental traits and powers for this archmage. I foresee it braking free again and would like to be better prepared.

[markc]

In the past (really since the AD&D module S1) we have often done something close to this, with often the persons mind being trapped in a gem in the crown/circlet.


Also being able to block or hide magic item abilities brought a need to add some options for this when creating magic items. At times we just looked at different rules for intelligent items and then settled on creating generic options for all items.


You may think that the making magic items abilities harder to detect in only for "bad" things but it can also be quite useful for almost any item to hide its power for various reasons. In D&D you can think of the Elemental Rings of Command (IIRC) in which they function as specific rings and then when the wearer does something the full powers of the ring are unlocked.




IIRC, you are playing in ME and this might be a way to introduce clones or bodies for re-inhabitation mentally and or by soul transfer. The trapped persona has to get within a specific distance of their old lab to transfer their mental energy/soul/mind back into a new physical body.
Also in some fiction the mental presence is not as powerful once it gets back into it new physical body, so it is in essence more powerful in magic item form then physical form for a time. Depending on the mind of the person/thing trapped in the item they may and or may not come after the party right away.
Also if they are weaker for a time this could actually be a long time in terms of game play not long in terms of game world living person time, ie 3-15 years in game time where at times few games last that long.
MDC     

[Ginger McMurray]

IIRC, you are playing in ME and this might be a way to introduce clones or bodies for re-inhabitation mentally and or by soul transfer. The trapped persona has to get within a specific distance of their old lab to transfer their mental energy/soul/mind back into a new physical body.
MDC   

That's the plan. I'm running a heavily modified version of Temple of Elemental Evil using the Spider Cult and their attempt to free Morgoth. The great plague is a symptom of the weakening of the barrier between the void and Arda. There's already a powerful magic item that's a skull. Al-Pharazon, the archmage,  plans to use it to rebuild his body and restart his plans of conquest. If he can inhabit it then he'll go dormant for as long as it takes his various healing lists to rebuild him from scratch. He'll go dormant during that time.

[markc]

I have enjoyed T1 and Return to the Temple of EE but have only played and GMed T1.


MDC

[Ginger McMurray]

I didn't have RttToEE when I started the campaign or I may have used it instead. I'm having to do some major changes in places to remove the "80's whackiness" in ToEE. For instance: werewolves who pretend to be angels.

Maybe I'll do the return in a future campaign with a new party.

[markc]

Yes there was a lot of things that happened in the 80's in terms of Role Playing Adventures and "needs to be changed to be of use today".


The Ruins of Undermountain was one of the first adventures IMHO that dealt with how you can have "creatures confined to small'ish spaces and thrive" vs some of our old, when you open the door the creature is summoned and then possibly goes away if you close the door.


MDC     

[Ginger McMurray]

Yes there was a lot of things that happened in the 80's in terms of Role Playing Adventures and "needs to be changed to be of use today".

The Ruins of Undermountain was one of the first adventures IMHO that dealt with how you can have "creatures confined to small'ish spaces and thrive" vs some of our old, when you open the door the creature is summoned and then possibly goes away if you close the door.

MDC   

"Creatures only exist in their rooms" is something I'm having to fix. Random encounter tables just don't help with that. But at least some of the interconnected rooms give attention to that. For instance, a priest may come when a guard calls or another guard might do his best not to bother his boss, even if under attack.

I've definitely seen worse.

Of course, back in those days I would sometimes toss together a character and use the random dungeon generator in the back of the AD&D DM's Guide to amuse myself on a dull Saturday.

[markc]

Yes, I have also played "just use the random tables" style of play and having to go back to a specific point and decide to change things so we could move forward.
The above is one of my "My GM is Crazy ideas so what does your GM do?".



Thinking about RTEE, I would say that if you can pick it up cheaply I would pick it up. I do not have any of the other Return modules but if they are of the same quality I might also pick them up.


MDC

[Ginger McMurray]

The only other "return to" module I've used is tomb of Horrors. It's as much of a meat grinder as the first one. I ran it in an epic level 3rd edition D&D game.

[jdale]

We played through that in 3.5. It got kind of silly with the Find The Path spell though. ("The spell enables the subject to sense the correct direction that will eventually lead it to its destination, indicating at appropriate times the exact path to follow or physical actions to take. For example, the spell enables the subject to sense trip wires or the proper word to bypass a glyph of warding.") Ghost Trap broke some things too.