Author Topic: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?  (Read 4904 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline foilfodder

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • OIC Points +0/-0
opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« on: January 26, 2020, 02:28:36 PM »
Rolemaster editions, MERP and HARP have some key differences. Each player will have a different opinion on what is the best part of each game system; what's yours?

Rolemaster (original/2.0/SS/FRP/RMU)
 1) Skill Progression split between catagories and specific skills is great for character customization (with a good spreadsheet)

High Adventure Role Playing
 1) Racial balance and traits for character building (MERP doesn't have enough customization for me, RM allows too much min/max).
 2) Stat improvement based on spending DPs rather a random die-roll after level up.
 3) I love the spell system flexibility as a player (however as GM I woudl be tempted to bring RMSS Spell Law back out).

Middle Earth Role Playing
 1) My favorite Attack Tables among the systems. Just a few tables with a few columns each filled with crit-tastic goodness!
 2) Fixed points to spend for development based on profession at each level rather than varying based on stats.

Offline RandalThor

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,116
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2020, 07:24:16 PM »
For me (using your number classification):

1) The fact that when I finish making my character (and I don't mind it taking a while, all part of the game, afaik) they feel 3D. Not a 2D caricature, but a fully fleshed-out inhabitant of the world. I did like it, in RMFRP, where they switched to a single combat table for slashing, piercing, bludgeoning, etc..., it made running combat much quicker/easier.

2) Single-roll combat. Even if I was to play RM, I would try to work in the HARP combat system because I am a big fan of the single-roll mechanic. Plus, it is a very quick game to pick up and play. (You are much more likely to get new gamers to play HARP than RM. Imo.) I also like the fact that is is easy to turn into a level-less game, something I think they should have done from the beginning.

3) The setting and the sheer amount of material for it. I mean, if they had put out half the adventure modules for RM that they did with MERP... a boy could dream.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline foilfodder

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 44
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2020, 07:59:56 PM »

2) Single-roll combat. Even if I was to play RM, I would try to work in the HARP combat system because I am a big fan of the single-roll mechanic. Plus, it is a very quick game to pick up and play. (You are much more likely to get new gamers to play HARP than RM. Imo.) I also like the fact that is is easy to turn into a level-less game, something I think they should have done from the beginning.


Yeah, I've never GMed (only been a player on these systems) but I think I would make a house-rule of using the Attack Dice Roll to double as the Critical Table Dice Roll would work for that. Ex: if you roll a natural 88 and score a D crit because of your OB, then use the die roll of 88 for the crit also. Still two tables, but only one die roll.  Always was frustrating to get a high attack roll then roll a 10 for the crit....

Offline Peter R

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,850
  • OIC Points +480/-480
    • Rolemaster Blog
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2020, 04:25:44 AM »
Rolemaster (original/2.0/SS/FRP/RMU)
 1) I like RMu's fast casting and spell casting mechanics
 2) I like RMu stat attributes
 3) I like RMu 'expertise skills'
 4) Fixed number of DPs per level

High Adventure Role Playing
 1) I like the way that races and demi races are constructed in HARP
 2) The scalable spells

Middle Earth Role Playing
 1) I like the compact combat tables, but RMFRP also uses these as does the RMC Combat Companion.
 2) Free skill ranks per profession
Rolemasterblog http://www.rolemasterblog.com
Twitter https://twitter.com/RolemasterBlog
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/rolemasterblog/

Spectre771 A couple of weeks ago, I disemboweled one of my PCs with a...

Offline Peter R

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,850
  • OIC Points +480/-480
    • Rolemaster Blog
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2020, 04:47:56 AM »

2) Single-roll combat. Even if I was to play RM, I would try to work in the HARP combat system because I am a big fan of the single-roll mechanic. Plus, it is a very quick game to pick up and play. (You are much more likely to get new gamers to play HARP than RM. Imo.) I also like the fact that is is easy to turn into a level-less game, something I think they should have done from the beginning.


Yeah, I've never GMed (only been a player on these systems) but I think I would make a house-rule of using the Attack Dice Roll to double as the Critical Table Dice Roll would work for that. Ex: if you roll a natural 88 and score a D crit because of your OB, then use the die roll of 88 for the crit also. Still two tables, but only one die roll.  Always was frustrating to get a high attack roll then roll a 10 for the crit....

One of the most elegant solutions to this was the Hack & Slash tables.
They used the 5 armour types (None, Soft Leather, Rigid, Chain, Plate), they then defined 26 unique criticals, A to Z.
A would be the first critical vs No armour, Z was the 150 result against Plate and the others progressing between the two extremes.
Each critical was a unique entry but because the critical writer knew exactly what weapon was being used and the exact armour being worn and the severity of the blow, the text could reflect all of these things in a uniqe critical. You don't have use generic phrase like "pierce enters lung" you can say "Arrow punches through foes breastplate and lodges in their lung" because you know this critical is for bows and you know the target was wearing plate armour.

You get to keep the unique profile of each weapon against each type of armour which is one of rolemaster's strengths and you get greater granularity in the armours than HARP can offer. You also gain this nice little detail of weapon specific criticals that add flavour.
Rolemasterblog http://www.rolemasterblog.com
Twitter https://twitter.com/RolemasterBlog
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/rolemasterblog/

Spectre771 A couple of weeks ago, I disemboweled one of my PCs with a...

Offline Zhaleskra

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 929
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2020, 09:54:16 AM »
As most of my HARP likes have been mentioned, I'll put in the one that hasn't: Damage by weapon group rather than individual weapon. And for SF, if you're wearing armor and you take a bullet (or a few) it's Ballistic Impact, if you're unarmored it's Ballistic Puncture.
#LotorAllura2024

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2020, 10:48:27 AM »
Rolemaster (RM2):
--Individual weapon charts in all their crunchy goodness.
--Unique critical charts in all their crunchy goodness.
--Individual skill costs, which makes for deep character customization, in all their crunchy goodness.
--Vast range of classes and spell lists in all their crunchy goodness.

RMU:
--Spellcasting changes make lower level casters playable.
--Simpler and easier rules in general (lots of needless complexities eliminated, and many rules streamlined).
--Size rules standardized.
--System for balancing races, classes, and levels, and easy rules for how to build your own races and classes.
--Action point economy and initiative system.
--Spells at every level of all spell lists.

'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Thot

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 610
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2020, 01:34:41 PM »
Can't comment in HARP, as I don't have it and am really not interested from what I've read.

RM:
  • The professions as "learning types", as in "people (who might otherwise be similar, stat-wise for instance) being different in what they can easily learn". Of course the way it is presented is not realistic, but the notion as such is a real-world thing that no other game I am aware of grasps so well.
  • The realistic approach to damage side effects (criticals). In RMU. this is even better with the addition of hit locations.
  • Magic that adds more effects that fit into a learned concept as you progress learning more about it. You don't learn just a spell, you learn a certain way to use magic, and as you get better at it, more effects become doable.

MERP:
  • Fewer weapons charts than RM; which does make sense to me. After all, a blade with a point will not do different damage than another blade with a point.
  • Fewer skills. While this is not as realistic, this kind of realism in RM quickly turns into bookkeeping, which limits player fun (and also, simply costs player attention span).
  • A default setting that is readily accessible to any fantasy fan, and rules that fit the setting at least to some extend.

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2020, 03:49:06 PM »

  • Fewer skills. While this is not as realistic, this kind of realism in RM quickly turns into bookkeeping, which limits player fun (and also, simply costs player attention span).
You could probably add that as a point in RMU's favor too: RMU has consolidated the skills list, greatly decreasing the overall number of skills. There's just one skill for Perception, as opposed to separate skills for General Perception, Sense Ambush, Sense Reality Warp, Detect Traps, Locate Secret Opening, and Sense Toast.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Spectre771

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,384
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2020, 04:17:39 PM »
There's just one skill for Perception, as opposed to separate skills for General Perception, Sense Ambush, Sense Reality Warp, Detect Traps, Locate Secret Opening, and Sense Toast.

That's a shame.  It's so hard to find good toast.
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2020, 04:23:38 PM »

That's a shame.  It's so hard to find good toast.

My son once asked me for 'raw toast'. It took me a minute to figure out what he meant: bread.

Life would be unimaginable without toast.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline VictoriaFelix

  • Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2020, 04:44:38 PM »

My son once asked me for 'raw toast'. It took me a minute to figure out what he meant: bread.

Life would be unimaginable without toast.

Given that my mother relies on toast (raw toast gets under her dentures too easily, too frequently and too annoyingly), I would be toast without toast. So may I propose, then, the following toast to toast:

To toast!

May you e'er be toasted and ne'er roasted, e'er any boast of their roasted toast!

Offline Thot

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 610
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2020, 09:27:28 AM »
[...]
  • The realistic approach to damage side effects (criticals). In RMU. this is even better with the addition of hit locations.
  • [...]
I must add that, having tested it a bit in actual play, I went back to the tables of RMFRP over those of RMU, as rolling hit locations first, attack rolls second (so that I know which armor type I hit) sort of took the fun out of RM combat for my players.

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2020, 10:36:46 AM »

I must add that, having tested it a bit in actual play, I went back to the tables of RMFRP over those of RMU, as rolling hit locations first, attack rolls second (so that I know which armor type I hit) sort of took the fun out of RM combat for my players.

A fair point, though of course you could just not use piecemeal armor in RMU, and then you don't have to roll hit location first. I think that would give you a system virtually the same as the FRP system?
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Thot

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 610
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2020, 12:03:37 PM »
Actually, I like the idea of being able to make piecemeal armor.

But an ideal system, in my view, would use critical results that are location-agnostic, and a separate hit location chart (with penalty for targetting locations deliberately). That way, the tension from what the severity of the critical hit will be remains in place.

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,099
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2020, 01:00:52 PM »
You'd lose a lot of the color by taking out the locations, and I think that is one of the best parts of the criticals. "-10 tendon and joint injury" is just not as interesting as "Strike knocks shoulder out of its socket, which shifts back into place with an audible pop. Joint back home, but injured."

But if you are willing to just work with the effects and ignore the descriptions, there's no reason you could not just use the existing tables the way you describe, and simply invent your own color text on the fly.

We did discuss changing the critical tables so you'd have one column per location instead of one column per severity, and then add a modifier to the roll based on the severity. That would address what you're saying. But it would also significantly change the way lethality is distributed. A and B criticals would have to lose their lethal results, D and E criticals would be more lethal. (You could shuffle the results around to balance that out, but doing so would make Ambush and other crit modifiers more powerful.)


To add my two cents on the thread...

RM2 is a great kit you can use to assemble a game, but some assembly is definitely required. RMSS is a great game you can still customize if you wish, although sometimes the approach of incorporating and organizing every single thing from the old edition makes it a little bloated (e.g. skill list). For all versions of RM, I love the way professions encourage you to fit an archetype, but give you the freedom to reach beyond it. I also love the magic system, where your knowledge is growing (not just learning arbitrary high level spells unrelated to your low level spells), but due to the nature of the lists you are picking up side knowledge and tangents as you go, encouraging you to find unexpected uses for spells you might not have actually picked on your own.

HARP does some streamlining but I felt it weakened the profession concept too much. And scalable spells feel a little too narrowly linear to me.

Obviously my preference is RMU so I won't belabor that point.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline Spectre771

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,384
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2020, 07:55:08 AM »
From the entire RM collection (taking RMu with a grain of salt as it has not been completed) I love the expansiveness.  It's more a "role playing simulation" than it is a "table-top game."  The ability to customize is staggering and while some people see that as a downside, you can easily restrict portions, professions, skills, spell lists, etc. to make the game manageable.  Saying it is too vast is a cop-out.  You can easily tailor everything to suit your style, setting, intentions, etc.

Specifically from RM2, I love that I can use a Companion such as Elemental Companion to truly customize the game world (or At Rapier's Point or Oriental Companion) and base the entire game setting on a single Companion and magic system.  I love that Shadow World provides an already built world to jump into, or allows you to take portions from those SW books to inject into your own world or to even play as a stand alone adventure for a small group of new players.  I've said it dozens of times in other posts, but I believe EC's handling of elements, elementals, elemental realms, creatures, etc. is sheer brilliance.  It's hands-down my favorite book from the entire collection.

I love the number of spells available to choose from as opposed to a single, small collection of spells that all spell casters have access to.

I love the variety of Professions.  While the Professions available allow players to choose their own special archetype, the PC still has the opportunity to learn nearly any skill, at a cost.  It's not like choosing a class and the choice automatically eliminates some skills from the PC.  There is a built-in balance there; several ranks in the low cost skills, or buy the couple of higher cost skills to really add flavor to the PC, or drop 20 DP for a non-spell user to get a 5% chance to learn a spell list.  (I had one fighter PC do that and he finally learned a spell list at level 6.  It was a small selection of spells, but for a fighter to be able to cast spells was a great surprise for the bad guys.)

I love the PC creation mechanic.  Every PC is different . The stats are different, the bonuses are different, the background options are different. The background options really add the greatest flavor to a PC.  The number of background option lists to choose from is awesome too.  I've had some great fun with PCs based on the results of the background options, even the Chaos Tables were fun.

When I first started playing RM, the GM at the time was also using MERP books in addition to the RM books so I can't say which aspects of MERP I like even though I did have some experience with it.  When I asked the GM about using both sets of books, he stated he liked the way some weapon tables were and some game play mechanics.
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,221
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2020, 12:07:40 PM »
RM2: I like most the magic spell list system, though I don't like much how it compartmentalises the spell lists into realms.

MERP: the simplification of armour penalties.

Aside from these two points, the critical tables are both the funniest yet the least realistic part of the RM system so I love them as much as I hate them.
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.

Offline Dakadin

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 76
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2020, 01:37:19 PM »
The best part about RM for me is the critical tables.  Since any single attack can potentially take someone out of the fight, it creates big moments that I haven't experienced in other games.  We still talk about some of them years later. :) It also makes people respect combat.  They don't survive or get injured if they aren't careful.  That can even happen when they are careful so they are much more cautious and get more satisfaction from winning a fight.

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,615
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: opinions - best parts of Rolemaster, MERP and HARP?
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2020, 08:07:38 PM »
MERP - The relative simplicity if talking mechanics. But, really, the fact that it's MERP. Middle Earth. Best version of the setting to be created.

HARP - The way to you can scale spells.

Rolemaster - The detail. Critical hit tables if I had to pick one piece of that. But also the fact that professions usually fill a fairly normal arch-type, yet can be customized in so many directions to the point that various builds using the same profession can be largely unrecognizable from each other.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss