Author Topic: Murder!  (Read 2153 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,099
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Murder!
« on: January 04, 2019, 06:25:13 PM »
This research is pretty interesting from a world-building perspective. Fantasy worlds may be more or less violent than historical Europe but we didn't really have any numbers for that. This gives us some numbers and descriptions at least for 14th century London.

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/murder-map-reveals-medieval-londons-meanest-streets

System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline Nightblade42

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 436
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Murder!
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2019, 10:41:22 PM »
Cool map & interesting research.  It makes a lot of sense.  You're right about it being great info for World Building.  Thanks for sharing jDale!

Nightblade ->--

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Murder!
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2019, 09:46:54 AM »
There is a bit of debate amongst medievalists as to how much more violent medieval societies were (than our own), but overall I think few would doubt Eisner's conclusion that medieval societies had considerably higher rates of homicide. As he notes, though, modern medicine may account for much of that-- people now survive wounds that were a death sentence back then.

From an RPG perspective, adding magical healing and Elven immunity to disease gives you the option of making your world less deadly if you want it that way
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Spectre771

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,384
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Murder!
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2019, 09:12:30 AM »
Agreed, the map and the data are fascinating.  It would be awesome if there was data similar to that dating even further back to see the comparisons.  It would certainly help to put the murder rates into perspective in gaming worlds if GMs are looking for more accuracy and realism.  I've often wondered how an assassin's guild could operate or exist as some GMs have several guilds.  I've wondered how much "wild west justice" was allowed or tolerated given the lack of law enforcement officials readily available.
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Murder!
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2019, 10:29:39 AM »
There isn't much data before the late Middle Ages. There's virtually nothing systematic before the high Middle Ages: we have the law codes from the Early Middle Ages of course, but we all know that laws aren't always followed. Aside from that, we have some early medieval records of court cases, but they are only a tiny fraction of the records that have been lost, and the ones that were preserved were mostly ones that ruled in favor of the church and its officials (which was the reason these records were preserved). It's not till the high Middle Ages that you start to get more regular records from the most bureaucratic regimes (England, the Italian city-states, the papacy), but even then, the records remain too spotty and erratic to support general conclusions about rates. Even the late medieval records are few and far between (at least from a modern perspective), sadly.

You can certainly learn a lot about medieval practices and attitudes to violence from the records, but what remains of those records generally doesn't support the type of systematic, statistical analysis we would all like to see.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Siltoneous

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 112
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Murder!
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2019, 02:27:59 PM »
Nice find.
One thing that pops into my head is I wonder how accurate the records are. Not that I think the researchers cut corners, more in the area of how how many people actually reported that kind of thing back then.  Also how many incidents the authorities actually recorded versus marking someone down as missing, or simply ran away. etc...
"All right, move on! Nothing to see here! Please disperse!" Frank Drebin, Police Squad

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,099
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: Murder!
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2019, 06:21:06 PM »
Given that the weapon was known in 99.3% of the cases, presumably they aren't counting any murders where the body was not found or the person just disappeared. So it's probably somewhat higher, although I don't know any way to estimate how much.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Murder!
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2019, 08:22:54 PM »
Especially for the early Middle Ages, many of the crimes would have gone unreported. This was because there were no police or district attorneys to prosecute the crime. People relied on their families and patrons for protection. If a crime happened to someone with no family (or only very weak family ties) and no patrons, there would be no one willing to bring it to court.

A revolution occurs in England in the 12th century (its roots are a little earlier) when King Henry II starts calling on panels of men to report any crimes rumoured to have taken pace in their shires, and the king then instructs his officials to look into them. This is essentially the birth of crown prosecutions as we know them. Before that... most of the cases were more like civil procedures: they relied on an accuser to prosecute the case. That meant that a lot of violence was settled out of court, or not settled (in the modern sense) at all.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle