Author Topic: Elemental attacks  (Read 1942 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GamemasterAlf

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Elemental attacks
« on: November 09, 2018, 08:56:51 PM »
Anyone have any houise rules for elemental attacks

I was just looking at the bonuses penalties for attacks and thinking about if these are realistic  (as realistic as magical energies can be anyway)

Thiings like shield bonus - against a fireball
great if you are facing the explosion and ducked in behind it but what if it were behind you

I do not see facing consideraations listed on elemental attacks 
Seems to assume one on one gunslinger type of combat

in fact if the fireball were behind you the shield could trap part of the blast against your body making the shield a detriment not a bonus

I can see piutting a little more into the rules to make this area a little more challenging and or dangerous

Anyone ever reworked these?

Offline Nightblade42

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 436
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Elemental attacks
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2018, 09:51:13 PM »
Can't say that I have, but I think the tables assume straight forward combat.  The rules leave interpretation up to the individual GM.  In the situation you mention (FBall behind the shield); I would probably rule that the shield bonus would apply as a bonus to the OB of the FBall & not as a bonus to the defender's DB - if you feel the shield were to add to the attack in this situation.

Nightblade ->--

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,099
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: Elemental attacks
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2018, 10:00:05 PM »
RMSS gives no shield bonus against area spells (which would include balls). It does give a reduced DB vs directed spells (bolts). See RMSR pg 93.

In RMU: "Defensive Bonus applies as the combatants are assumed to have a split second to shield themselves from the attack. Shields and cover only apply if they are between the center point of the attack (or the origin for cone attacks) and the defender." Shield DB does apply against bolts (with the normal shield restrictions about facing, number of foes blocked, etc). Dodging does not, although Evasion does.

I'm not sure about RM2/RMC.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline Nightblade42

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 436
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Elemental attacks
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2018, 10:26:22 PM »
Re-reading RM2 EAR Table (15.3 SL 1989 Red Binding Edition); the Shield DBs are only if the defender is facing the caster and cannot be applied to Area Spells.

Nightblade ->--

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,615
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: Elemental attacks
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2018, 11:32:06 AM »
First, how does a ball 'work' in you opinion?  Is it a pea that shoots out and explodes or is it an area that is somehow exposed to another dimension and filled with that element?  If the second, no bonuses.

If the pea concept: From my perspective, using miniatures on the table, If you want to get more detailed on 'ball' effects when a target is in an enclosed area I'd give no shield bonus.  If it's a more open area I might give bonuses based on the targets facing and how far within the radius.  If you're in the middle the fire will likely still wrap around you.  If near the edge the shield may help a bit (also depending on the shields size).  I would, however, require that the player actively 'hide' behind the shield to gain any benefit.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,099
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: Elemental attacks
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2018, 12:05:33 PM »
The rules as written describe the ball spells as a 1' ball that flies to the center point and then expands to fill the area. So a very large pea.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline Hurin

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,347
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Elemental attacks
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2018, 02:08:12 PM »
I always followed the pea concept too -- didn't one of the early descriptions of fireball describe it exactly like that? So I like the idea of the shield DB counting so long as the shield is between the target and ground zero. It really isn't that hard for Magicians to get around the shield anyway by putting the center of effect behind a target (and thus the shield DB doesn't count).
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,615
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: Elemental attacks
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2018, 02:39:19 PM »
I think the 'pea' idea is pretty universal among systems.  It's just a little wonky when you start talking about other things like water, lightning, etc.  There really aren't a lot of 'balls' in RM however.  For RM 'Void' would probably be the odd one.  I think the reasoning is you actually cause all the air to disappear from the area and all the air rushing back in causes the damage...?  Potential shield bonuses aren't going to help there.

Only reason I mention the other way is cause how elemental attacks work is something that is somewhat common for GMs to create a custom theory for their setting and the elements are something you see covered in some detail in RM fairly often.  I can totally see a world where elemental spells are performed by drawing on elemental planes.  So a 'fireball' might simply be opening a bubble of space to the elemental plane of fire for example.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Majyk

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 477
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Elemental attacks
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2018, 05:43:56 AM »
Nice new concept, Cory.

I always liked the idea of a meat shield running into the line of sight and trajectory of the 1’ Ball spell. 
Kinda akin to a soldier jumping on a grenade in order to protect his brethren around the previously chosen centre point of effect.

I never allowed casters to lob Ball spells to avoid detonation before arriving at its target centre of effect just for that reason.  They flew straight from a hand(or eyes for flavour) to their end point. 
Watch for this in your games as it is a huge game changer, tactically, and you’d be surprised how many times us GMs gloss over the path of such spells jumping distractedly straight to adjudicating damage results!
Your NPCs will love and thank you for allowing them to survive unscathed by the sacrifice their mate makes for the cause of evil and chaos!  ;)

Offline Jengada

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 409
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Elemental attacks
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2018, 10:55:32 AM »
I admit I hadn't thought much about this - I don't think a PC has ever used a ball spell in my campaign, and I've rarely used them for NPCs. I have always assumed the "pea" paradigm. I thought it came from 2nd Ed. AD&D, but I just pulled that out and interestingly, here's what it says:
Quote
The magic-user points his or her finger and speaks the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A streak flashes from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body prior to attaining the prescribed range, flowers into the fireball.

I think I'e always gone with 0 shield bonus for area spells, and I like the idea of someone jumping into the path. I'd probably rule that they have to be within 5' of the path to do so though. Otherwise, it seems there should be a delay from time of casting to time of detonation.
We ask the hard questions here, because they keep us too busy to worry about the hard questions in the real world, and we can go with the answers we like the best.

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,099
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: Elemental attacks
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2018, 12:05:21 AM »
I have a spell on one of my homebrew Star magic lists in which a 10'R beam of light shines down from the sky and everything in the area takes damage as from a lightning ball attack. So the attack direction is always from overhead. (It only works outdoors, or at least only if the beam is able to blast through whatever is between the target and the sky.) Just to give an example of a different way it could work, to make different lists feel different.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline Spectre771

  • Revered Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,384
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Elemental attacks
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2018, 11:37:13 AM »
There are a lot of possible answers to this question.  It would help if we knew which flavor of RM you are referring to.  RM2 has Elemental Companion which we use solely for all magic.  We've never had to house-rule anything from it to make the spells work.

As for size, pea vs. ball, it was irrelevant.  The 'vehicle' that transported the matter wasn't important.  If the spell called for a 1' ball, then it was a 1' ball or equivalent.  An air elementalist may want his 'ball' to look like an attacking falcon of air... still about 1' in size.  The electrical elementalist may want his attack to look like a 1' x 1' electrical web.  It was all aesthetics and allowed the caster to personalize his spells.

I never allowed casters to lob Ball spells to avoid detonation before arriving at its target centre of effect just for that reason.  They flew straight from a hand(or eyes for flavour) to their end point. 

We allowed Spell Mastery to make lobbing a spell possible.  There is also Spell Trickery, another optional skill from a later RM2 Companion, that allowed spell manipulation.

in fact if the fireball were behind you the shield could trap part of the blast against your body making the shield a detriment not a bonus

Elemental Companion deals with this concept for cone attacks.  If a 25' length cone hits a wall 15' away, there is 10' of cone that reflects back towards the caster (or at the appropriate angle).  The poor bloke at the center of the cone AND within that 10' reflection section, gets pulped!  Center of a cone attack is double damage.  Center of the reflected damage and he gets horribly punished again.

Using your fireball example and a shield carrying target, you could easily apply a version of the cone rules to that single target.
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,615
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: Elemental attacks
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2018, 07:04:15 PM »
I have a spell on one of my homebrew Star magic lists in which a 10'R beam of light shines down from the sky and everything in the area takes damage as from a lightning ball attack. So the attack direction is always from overhead. (It only works outdoors, or at least only if the beam is able to blast through whatever is between the target and the sky.) Just to give an example of a different way it could work, to make different lists feel different.
Another factor might be that, with something like an electrical attack, a metal shield could potentially be more harmful than helpful.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss