Topic: Power/Spell Adjustments

[arakish]

Here is an idea I had for Power Adjustments on my world of Onaviu.  Parenthetical numbers are alternate costs I am debating with.  I know I have seen these elsewhere, just cannot remember where.  Probably posts here on the forums, or in the many Rolemaster Companions, or in Vault docs.  Perhaps even an article at The Guild Companion.  Basically, I used those other docs as a basis, but still did this from memory.

Critique to heart's content.

Each x2 weight limit: +50% PP
Each critical severity level increase: +200% PP
Each +50% hits increase: +25% PP (+50% PP)
Make power invisible: +25% PP (+50% PP)
Make power undetectable: +100% PP (+200% PP)

Duration Changes
No duration (this does NOT include instaneous attack spells) to 1 round: +25% PP
Concentration to 1rnd/lvl(C): +25% PP
Remove concentration requirement: +50% PP

Duration Step Increase: +10% PP per Step (+20% PP per Step)
make "/lvl"
1 round
1 minute
10 minutes
30 minutes
1 hour
1 day
5 days
10 days
30 days
100 days
1 year
10 years
100 years
1000 years
Permanent

Note: The make "/lvl" counts as only one step.

Some examples

1) A spell requires (C).  To move it to 1rnd/lvl(C), requires +25% PP, then to remove concetration requirement would cost an additional +50% PP.  If the spell cost 10PP to cast, moving it to 1rnd/lvl(C), would require an additional 3PP (10 x 0.25, round up), and removing the concentration requirement would cost an additional 5PP (10 x 0.5), for a total of 18PP.  This would equate to PP x 1.75, round up.

2) A 10PP spell has a duration of only 1 round.  To move it to 10min/lvl would cost 13PP; 10 + (10 x 0.1 (move to 1 minute)) + (10 x 0.1 (move to 10 minutes)) + (10 x 0.1 (make "/lvl")).  This would equate to PP x 1.3, round up.  Or, if I used the alternate, it would cost 16PP; 10 + (10 x 0.2 (move to 1 minute)) + (10 x 0.2 (move to 10 minutes)) + (10 x 0.2 (make "/lvl")).  This would equate to PP x 1.6, round up.

3) A 10PP spell has a duration of 10 minutes.  To make it permanent would be a cost of 22PP, or 34PP; depending on whether using the +10% per Step or +20% per Step (12 Steps).  This equates to PP x 2.2, or PP x 3.4.

Basically, the additional costs are additive based on the original cost of the spell.

Other adjustments are handled under Expanding, Extending, Stretching, and Increasing as can be seen in this old webpage.

rmfr

[yammahoper]

I'm gonna stick the skill Spell Mastery, developed once and and applied to all list, with no pp penalty.  Ya know, the way a fighter can develop a Weapon Style that allows three attacks a round (Weapon, additional unarmed attack and shield bash) with a group of weapons?  Just seems fair.

[jdale]

Does the increase in power affect the casting difficulty or the effective level of the spell for purposes of spell preparation?

I suspect that in many cases you can use these modifiers on a lower-level spell to get a higher-level effect. E.g. Telekinesis I is 3rd level (on Essence Hand) and moves 1 lbs. x2 weight for 50% more PP means you can do:

1 lbs - 3 PP
2 lbs - 4.5 PP
4 lbs - 6 PP
8 lbs - 7.5 PP
16 lbs - 9 PP
32 lbs - 10.5 PP
64 lbs - 12 PP
128 lbs - 13.5 PP
256 lbs - 15 PP
512 lbs - 16.5 PP

(I leave unresolved how you round your 0.5 PP, up or down).

The 11th level spell Telekinesis III is 25 lbs, not a bad match. The 14th level spell Telekinesis IV is 50 lbs, so the enhanced 3rd level spell is quite a bit better. The 17th level spell Telekinesis V is 100 lbs, for 17 PP the enhanced 3rd level spell is doing 512 lbs.

As a simple solution, suggested by someone else somewhere else I don't recall, you could simply say that no spell can be enhanced to achieve the effect of a higher level spell. E.g. since Telekinesis I is 1 lbs and Telekinesis II is 5 lbs, you could enhance Telekinesis I to lift 4 lbs but for more than that you need to use a higher level spell.

I will also note that removing the need for concentration (e.g. by changing the spell to 1 round/lvl) is removing a pretty significant control on the power of a spell.

[Moostik]

I'd interpret it as cumulative modifiers added together first, then applied to basic weight limit
x1=1 lbs - 3 PP
x2=2 lbs - 4.5 PP
x4=4 lbs - 6 PP
x6=6 lbs - 7.5 PP
x8=8 lbs - 9 PP
x10=10 lbs - 10.5 PP
x12=12 lbs - 12 PP
Although Telekinesis III = 25 lbs - 11 PP
x2 = 50 lbs - 16.5 PP
Although Telekinesis IV = 50 lbs - 14 PP
x2 = 100 lbs - 22 PP
Although Telekinesis V = 100 lbs - 17 PP
x2 = 200 lbs = 25,5 lbs
etc

This way, the advantage of learning that higher level spell will significantly outweigh the possibility to scale up your known, lower level spell.

[tbigness]

I prefer that a lower level spell never exceeds a spell of a higher level or else what is the point of the higher level spells. so a sleep VII would never go beyond Sleep IX because Sleep X is the next up  on the list.

[jdale]

That's better, although I would be surprised if it solves the problem in all cases.

Even in that case, it's only a solution if the spell is considered to be of the higher level (based on PP spent) for prep purposes, though. If boosted Telekinesis I is still treated as a regular 3rd level spell for the SCSM, you get almost as much weight for the same cost and less prep/difficulty.

[tbigness]

In the case of Telekinesis I would not allow more weight than the higher level spell so this could not be an overpower glitch to be taken advantage of. A lower level spell should never be more powerful than a higher level.

[tbigness]

Spell Modification rules I use.

Spells may be modified by the use of Spell Mastery to a Spell List to increase the effects of the spell which is paid in additional Power Points (PP) for these effects.

       Maynard a 2nd level magician wants to get past 4 Orc guards without raising an alarm. Normally Maynard would only be able to affect 2 Orcs with the Sleep V spell due to the Orcs being 2nd level, but Maynard specialized 4 ranks in the Sleep V spell and spends an additional 3 spell points for a total of 4 Power Points for this improved spell to affect 8 Levels of creatures.  Each Orc has failed there saving throws so Maynard has subdued his quarry and skips down the trail happy to be alive.
To clarify this section not only can you purchase your spells, but can use Spell Mastery to specialize in the spell list to greater effect. These effects cannot surpass a greater spell with the same name on the list for effects. Such as one can make a Sleep V a Sleep IX, but cannot make the same spell Sleep X or higher.

Things that can be adjusted by Spell Specialization:
Affect more levels of creatures of Level affect spells…….…1 / additional level
Savings throw difficulty per 5 percent………………………3 / additional 5 percent
Additional range for spell……………………………………1 / 5 ft increment max 45 ft
Additional Duration increment……………………………....3 / Extra Duration increment IE. Duration of 1 min / level will increase to 2 min / level
Additional target for single target spells……………………..5 Only one extra Target within 15 ft
 
This makes spells cost more but are no more effective than the next higher spell of the same name in the list.

[Voriig Kye]

I know I have seen these elsewhere, just cannot remember where.  Probably posts here on the forums, or in the many Rolemaster Companions, or in Vault docs.  Perhaps even an article at The Guild Companion.

Maybe this is the article you are referring to:
http://guildcompanion.com/scrolls/1999/jun/spellmastery.html

[arakish]

Does the increase in power affect the casting difficulty or the effective level of the spell for purposes of spell preparation?

I suspect that in many cases you can use these modifiers on a lower-level spell to get a higher-level effect. E.g. Telekinesis I is 3rd level (on Essence Hand) and moves 1 lbs. x2 weight for 50% more PP means you can do:

1 lbs - 3 PP
2 lbs - 4.5 PP
4 lbs - 6 PP
8 lbs - 7.5 PP
16 lbs - 9 PP
32 lbs - 10.5 PP
64 lbs - 12 PP
128 lbs - 13.5 PP
256 lbs - 15 PP
512 lbs - 16.5 PP

(I leave unresolved how you round your 0.5 PP, up or down).

The 11th level spell Telekinesis III is 25 lbs, not a bad match. The 14th level spell Telekinesis IV is 50 lbs, so the enhanced 3rd level spell is quite a bit better. The 17th level spell Telekinesis V is 100 lbs, for 17 PP the enhanced 3rd level spell is doing 512 lbs.

As a simple solution, suggested by someone else somewhere else I don't recall, you could simply say that no spell can be enhanced to achieve the effect of a higher level spell. E.g. since Telekinesis I is 1 lbs and Telekinesis II is 5 lbs, you could enhance Telekinesis I to lift 4 lbs but for more than that you need to use a higher level spell.

I will also note that removing the need for concentration (e.g. by changing the spell to 1 round/lvl) is removing a pretty significant control on the power of a spell.

Thanks for pointing this one out.

I'd interpret it as cumulative modifiers added together first, then applied to basic weight limit
x1=1 lbs - 3 PP
x2=2 lbs - 4.5 PP
x4=4 lbs - 6 PP
x6=6 lbs - 7.5 PP
x8=8 lbs - 9 PP
x10=10 lbs - 10.5 PP
x12=12 lbs - 12 PP
Although Telekinesis III = 25 lbs - 11 PP
x2 = 50 lbs - 16.5 PP
Although Telekinesis IV = 50 lbs - 14 PP
x2 = 100 lbs - 22 PP
Although Telekinesis V = 100 lbs - 17 PP
x2 = 200 lbs = 25,5 lbs
etc

This way, the advantage of learning that higher level spell will significantly outweigh the possibility to scale up your known, lower level spell.

Moostik had it close.  The intention was the per x2 multiplier is applied to the original number, thus the 1lb could the increased to 2lb, then four pounds, then six pounds, then eight pounds, etc.

I know I have seen these elsewhere, just cannot remember where.  Probably posts here on the forums, or in the many Rolemaster Companions, or in Vault docs.  Perhaps even an article at The Guild Companion.

Maybe this is the article you are referring to:
http://guildcompanion.com/scrolls/1999/jun/spellmastery.html

Actually never saw that article.  The one I remember had something to do with spells being handled like they are in HARP, now that I try to remember.

Although I did not mention it, the PowerUsers on Onaviu actually construct their own lists similar to the Arcist from RoCo4.  Or was it RoCo3?

Does the increase in power affect the casting difficulty or the effective level of the spell for purposes of spell preparation?

There is no spell preparation other than spell casting time based on:
(CL - SL) + 3; minimum of 3 rounds.
Pushing casting time faster costs either PPs or penalty on SCR.  The cost in PPs is 10/rnd.  The cost in penalty is -10 for 1 round, -20 for 2 rounds, -40 for 3 rounds.  However, I have thought of increasing the penalty, thus basically making it a matter of spending PPs.

Otherwise, it is still a WIP.

rmfr

[Moostik]

arakish, you might be thinking of Joerg's scalable spells. Just ideas on his part, but a good article. I'd really like to see a good option for spell scaling that works well with spell mastery. What we need is a complete system that handles this. Also, this should empower the Arcanist from Arcane Companion rather than making the profession obsolete.

http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2011/jan/rmss_jahnke_scalable_spells.html

[arakish]

arakish, you might be thinking of Joerg's scalable spells. Just ideas on his part, but a good article. I'd really like to see a good option for spell scaling that works well with spell mastery.

http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2011/jan/rmss_jahnke_scalable_spells.html

Yep.  That's the one.  Thanks.

What we need is a complete system that handles this. Also, this should empower the Arcanist from Arcane Companion rather than making the profession obsolete.

And this is what I am trying to do, but the process is slow since my free time is severely limited.

rmfr