Topic: Ephemeral Clarification

[Lord Garth]

Hi folks, I'd like some help with a spell from the Ephemeral Enhancement (RoCo V, page 84) spell list.

There's a spell called Ephemeral at level 5, 9 and 13.

Wording for the level 5 spell goes as follows :

"Temporarily increases the value of any statistic up to 1 point per five levels of the caster. Statistics can be increased above their potentital by one point per 10 levels of the caster. Target gains all benefits associanted with higher statistics."

Level 9 (Ephemeral II)

"As Ephemeral I, except two points per five levels may be affected."

Level 13 (Ephemeral III)

"As Ephemeral I, except three points per five levels may be affected."

My question is, does Ephemeral II grant the possibility of increasing a stat above the potential by two points per 10 levels, and subsequently Ephemeral III by three points as the wording would suggest?

Thanks and happy start of the week!!!

[Nders]

Yes that is how we have always read it as well.

[markc]

  I would read the Empemeral II spell as giving 2 points per 5 levels but still having the restriction of going over there limit by 1 point per 10 levels.
 
  But I can see it used either way depending on the power of your game.
MDC

[Marc R]

I concur with Mark's view also, the potential gain can cause a radical power skew, especially clearing 100, while the temp gain is less of an issue.

[Nders]

But you would agree that this is not what the spell says right? Also why would you cast empheral II if it is the same as empheral I? When you have reached your potential anyways. Considering that you probably have access to empheral enhancements when you cast your empheral spells it is rather likely that all your temporaries are up to your potentials - as there is a spell that does that somewhere in there. I forgot at what level exactly.

[Marc R]

Let us say that a caster is 20th level.

Casts Ephemeral I and gets +4 to temp, limit of 2 over potential.

Casts Ephemeral II and gets +8 to temp, limit of 2 over potential.

Casts Ephemeral III and gets +12 to temp, limit of 2 over potential.

vs

Casts Ephemeral I and gets +4 to temp, limit of 2 over potential.

Casts Ephemeral II and gets +8 to temp, limit of 4 over potential.

Casts Ephemeral III and gets +12 to temp, limit of 6 over potential.

A 20th level caster giving themselves a 102 in something (or perhaps, at a stretch a 103 or 104) is not the same as getting a 106 or pushing it 108. . .the problem lies in the way the stat table works, as every point over 100 is worth more bonus. . .so a 108 is way off scale. . .

2 points can be worth +10, 6 points can be worth +30. . .

The first set is already pretty potent, and is the words of the spell as written, the second is a stretch, assuming the potential gain scales as the temp gain. . . .

Would you assume that a fire wall II spell that was "As Fire wall, but a B critical" implied automatically doubling the AOE, duration or Range also, or just that the spell is exactly identical, except it does a more powerful crit?

Going purely by the RAW, the up-scaling is to the temp gain only.

[Nders]

Would you assume that a fire wall II spell that was "As Fire wall, but a B critical" implied automatically doubling the AOE, duration or Range also, or just that the spell is exactly identical, except it does a more powerful crit?

Trolling a little? No I don't believe very many would. I do not disagree with your balancing points but I have to correct you on your reading as it is not what the spell says. Granted it does not specifically stipulate that it does use the same increase above temps but as it offers no further explanation and higher level spells tend to do more than lower level spells it seems very likely that the more powerful interpretation albeit unbalanced is what the author intended. Also please consider the rest of the material in RoCoV and look at the balancing of the other material submitted by the same author. (I do not know if we can post submitters names in here) I you after having done this still consider my reading to be out of thread with the authors style and precedent then please let us talk about the balancing issue again.

To sum up:

Going purely by the RAW, the up-scaling is to the temp gain only.

disagreeing entirely - the writing says nothing of the kind.

The first set is already pretty potent, and is the words of the spell as written, the second is a stretch, assuming the potential gain scales as the temp gain. . . .

Agreed - the list is rather powerful an unbalanced.

[Marc R]

RAW is what it says, no more, no assumptions or common sense expansion beyond that, it's the "Rule as Written".

You asked:

But you would agree that this is not what the spell says right?

And I was trying to be clear that what the spell says is just that, no more.

If common sense dictates that the more powerful Ephemeral II gets a non stipulated increase to the potential also, then why not a common sense non stipulated increase in range, AoE or Duration for the hypothetical 'B' critical version of a fire wall?

I'm the last person who'd ever tell a GM they were wrong to use their common sense and judgement to make the rules work for them, but if you ask "what does the spell say" you're going to get the narrowest possible judgement of the exact parsing of the exact words, nothing more.

I'm sorry if you don't like that answer, but it's the answer to the question you asked, not me being hostile or trolly.

[Nders]

I'm sorry if you don't like that answer, but it's the answer to the question you asked, not me being hostile or trolly.

I do not like that answer and I do not agree with your line of reasoning.

And I was trying to be clear that what the spell says is just that, no more.

Usually how would you read a wording that said: As spell#1 except parameter times two? you would not read it as: that parameter with all the spells wording?

Anyways is there any chance LRR is in these forums? I am certain he could clarify as to his intentions - even if we find it hard to even agree on his wording.

[Nders]

You might also want to look at the spell amplify from the same lists and tell me when you would want to use the empheral spell and what you would use the higher level versions of the spell for?

[Marc R]

It's possible he's around, and if the spell needs errata, we shall see.

as a general rule, when you have "As X except for Y" you can sub in the Y text and read it, as in:

This:

Wording for the level 5 spell goes as follows :

"Temporarily increases the value of any statistic up to 1 point per five levels of the caster. Statistics can be increased above their potentital by one point per 10 levels of the caster. Target gains all benefits associanted with higher statistics."

Level 9 (Ephemeral II)

"As Ephemeral I, except two points per five levels may be affected."

Level 13 (Ephemeral III)

"As Ephemeral I, except three points per five levels may be affected."

Would then become this:

Wording for the level 5 spell goes as follows :

"Temporarily increases the value of any statistic up to 1 point per five levels of the caster. Statistics can be increased above their potential by one point per 10 levels of the caster. Target gains all benefits associated with higher statistics."

Level 9 (Ephemeral II)

""Temporarily increases the value of any statistic up to 2 points per five levels of the caster. Statistics can be increased above their potential by one point per 10 levels of the caster. Target gains all benefits associated with higher statistics."

Level 13 (Ephemeral III)

""Temporarily increases the value of any statistic up to 3 points per five levels of the caster. Statistics can be increased above their potential by one point per 10 levels of the caster. Target gains all benefits associated with higher statistics."

Going beyond that is assuming and ruling and stretching beyond what's actually stated. I'm not saying you're out of line in thinking that, but it is assuming more than what is given in terms of RAW.

If you want a RAW answer, that's how you resolve when a spell refers to another spell, you actually change the text that the second spell dictates. (and only that text, no more).

Going beyond that is either house rules, or into the realm of "I think this is a mistake and needs to be fixed in the errata".

If indeed the II and III said "As X but x2 as many points" and "As X but x3 as many points" then indeed the RAW would be exactly as you say, but in this instance, the text was more specific than that.

If'n you're asking what the spell says, that's the answer, if you think it's a mistake and needs changing, then lay the case for the spell being broken and in need of a fix. . .

[Lord Garth]

RoCo V is, indeed, filled with very powerful spell lists. Ephemeral, Mana Currents (Deathstroke anyone?), Time Law ... One of the reasons why I love Rolemaster, and indeed that includes all the Companions is the keyword OPTIONAL for all the materials presented, which is why in 19 years I had never ever once used this particular list.

My current campaign is not for the faint-hearted, so this time I'm using it.

The literal wording of the Ephemeral spell description says Lord Miller is right, I'd tend to agree.

However, the fact that there's Amplify for your Temp stats and that one spell already does scale with levels, which would make Ephemeral (which gives the name to the list) mostly redundant after its level 5 spell, which seems ... well ... off. Which is why I believe Nders might have a point.

I'd love to get an insight from the original Author, but for the time being I'm probably going to go with

.....
 
  But I can see it used either way depending on the power of your game.
MDC

[markc]

 Looking at the list I think the spell Transfer is the key in that the caster can swap stats with others. I do not think the list was designed to pump up one persons stats to high levels by using the Emp "X" type spells but to pump the casters stat swap and pump the caster up again. Or to swap, pump and swap again.


 MDC

[Ynglaur]

Do these spells exist in RMSS/RMFRP anywhere?

[markc]

Do these spells exist in RMSS/RMFRP anywhere?

 I do not think so as raising stats by spells is something "I" think they tried to avoid. But I will try and see if I can find an example in RMSS/FRP.
MDC

[Kristen Mork]

A search through my database of spell descriptions (missing a few lists from Essence Companion and most of Fire & Ice and Construct Companion) reveals only 14 instances of the word temporary, of which 8 are in the context of stats.  Of those eight, 6 cause stat damage, 1 heals stat damage and 1 increases a stat.  That final spell is Lovely Assistant on Entertaining Ways, which provides a bonus to Appearance.

So, I think it's safe to say that there's no similar spells in RMSS.

[Marc R]

Did you search "Temporary" as a whole word, because "Temp Stat" is a common abbreviation. (That said, my brain says there's no similar spells in RMSS).

[Kristen Mork]

Marc, good call.  However, no spells have the string "temp " in them.  Looks like temporary is always spelled out.

[Nders]

There are no such spells in RMSS/RMFRP - searched the mental database :-D

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

However, the fact that there's Amplify for your Temp stats and that one spell already does scale with levels, which would make Ephemeral (which gives the name to the list) mostly redundant after its level 5 spell, which seems ... well ... off.

Uh, no. They're as much redundant as the Amplify spells are, meaning not at all. An Ephemeral spell is always better than its Amplify since it allows the stat to go beyond its potential, something the Amplify spell doesn't. Now, the higher Ephemeral spells are only "not useful" compared to the lowest one if and only if they're cast on a stat whose temporary equals the potential. OTOH, in this case, the Amplify, all of them, are also completely "not useful", so comparing them would also be a moot point.
Now, should a spell that is a higher level version of a spell in the same list always be better than its lower level counterpart? That's the actual question Nders is asking, because an Ephemeral is objectively overall better than its lower level counterparts, being better in all cases but one, the case when cast on a stat whose temporary equals the potential.