Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Shadow World => Topic started by: symbolique on September 20, 2006, 04:37:36 PM
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I'm not sure if this has been discussed, written or brought up before. I only seriously looked into it after a female player in my group mentioned it to me and with the 5 moons I thought... better get the calculator (j/k).
Any ideas?
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I can't wait to see Terry's answer to this one.
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Some questions have to be asked.
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I'm not sure what the question here is ... did I miss something? Menstruation is not like tide and ebb, is it? It has nothing to do with the moon or moons... Women don't all have their menstruation according to one phase of the moon.
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There is proof for and against. Tests with artificial lighting for and then there's the difference of menstruation cycles with animals in our world against.
Though obviously not all women have their menstruation at the same time in the world :)
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I am completely unqualified to answer this. ???
However, it does bring to mind the interesting question of immortal elves. Human women only have a set number of eggs (or follicles, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folliculogenesis), right? So either elven women can make more, or their menstruate so rarely... once every few years...? That would also explain their relative infertility.
As for mortal women, you decide!
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Great subject :)
Generally I like Terrys idea of having elves menstruate rarely. But, it also brings forth the 'problem' of halfbreeds being too common? Not meaning Sulinis, Kytaaris etc.
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I did a small game aid about how races can interbred in shadow world. You can find it here :
http://www.sden.org/Description-des-races-et-fertilite.html
There is also an excel sheet that allows you to compute the chances that an union will lead to a child depending on the race of each of the parents. Also, the number of months of pregnancy, as well as the mean number of children per woman :
http://www.sden.org/IMG/zip/races.zip
(it is in french but if you are interested I can translate it quickly in english)
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Great subject :)
Generally I like Terrys idea of having elves menstruate rarely. But, it also brings forth the 'problem' of halfbreeds being too common? Not meaning Sulinis, Kytaaris etc.
Mmm maybe it's more common having mortal mothers that inmortal mothers??
:Joker2:.
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I did a small game aid about how races can interbred in shadow world. You can find it here :
http://www.sden.org/Description-des-races-et-fertilite.html
There is also an excel sheet that allows you to compute the chances that an union will lead to a child depending on the race of each of the parents. Also, the number of months of pregnancy, as well as the mean number of children per woman :
http://www.sden.org/IMG/zip/races.zip
(it is in french but if you are interested I can translate it quickly in english)
Anyplans on having the info translated to English?
RoseCity
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Anyplans on having the info translated to English?
RoseCity
I'm working on it but I don't have a lot of spare time. Maybe next week !
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Mathhatt, I know I would appreciate a translation. English is my only language and my female player who plays a K'ta'viiri/Dyari crossbreed has plumbed me for menstruation details which I had never thought about. Her player is surreptitiously trying to get pregnant with her partner, so any information that I don't have to grab from the ether would be well appreciated.
Kind regards
Jason Just
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I just finished to translate the excel sheet in english. However it does not include the menstruation information. It only computes the probability that the union leads to a pregnancy and a viable (though maybe sterile) child. This probability should be modified (GM discretion) by other factors such as menstruation/ovulation and the time intercourse actually happens, care and hygien of life...
http://mathhatt.free.fr/jdr/rm/sw/docs/races_english.xls
If I had to state a rule in my own campaign about menstruation, I think I would decide that menstruation and ovulation happens in the same way for all females whatever races they are, with maybe only some changes in durations. I think for long-life "human" races (like Laan), maybe something like "menstruation during 2 weeks each three months", and for elves, maybe "for half a month each year".
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I finished the translation of the doc, it was quicker than I thought. I hope I did not make too many mistakes...
You can find it there (.doc or HTM) :
http://mathhatt.free.fr/jdr/rm/sw/docs/races_english.htm
http://mathhatt.free.fr/jdr/rm/sw/docs/races_english.doc
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Your comment on menstruation times are a little misleading.
A woman is LEAST likely to be fertile during menstruation.
Additionally, Ovulation & menstruation are INDEPENDENT, but related.
Ovulation may be triggered by a rush of hormones (frx - many "harbour wives" may get pregnant even when their calander and general physical condition might suggest otherwise, becuase their partner arrives in and this can trigger ovulation).
Menstruation is the outward face of a complex cyclical pattern that represents the progressive build-up of the receptive (and blood-rich) wall of the womb that typically cumulates at roughly "day 18" of the "average womans" biological cycle. After that point, the womb remains receptive to implantation (is maintained in that state) for a further 6-8 days before a change in hormone levels causes the lining of the womb to beging to slough-off and be lost. This typically continues for 2-3 days, at the end of which the cycle starts again and the lining starts to build up again.
For someone to "bleed" for a month at a time (as suggested above) would probably kill them if it was at comparable levels to a human.
Other Mammals organise things differently. When a Dog/wolf goes into "Heat", this represents that their womb is now at optimal condition for implatation. However, it is maintained in that state by allowing a very low, but continual loss of the old lining, that is continually replaced during oestrus. However, this fertile period is unlikely to last for very long or the animal would be come ill.
Either way - there is NO connection to the phases of the moon (the proximity in timing is co-incidental). However, the proximity of other women DOES have an effect. If several women live in close proximity, their biological cycles tend to slowly come into approximate synchronisation. Humans may not overtly notice the hormones ... but our bodies react to them anyway.
Make what you wish of that.
Cormac
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Amazing and unexpected discussion this....
Are you a Doctor or biologist Cormac?
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Biologist :)
Cormac
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Interesting topic - werewolves might also be a bit confusing not to mention tides. Hadn't thought of this before.
Either way - there is NO connection to the phases of the moon (the proximity in timing is co-incidental). However, the proximity of other women DOES have an effect. If several women live in close proximity, their biological cycles tend to slowly come into approximate synchronisation. Humans may not overtly notice the hormones ... but our bodies react to them anyway.
And in that group there will typically be a 'dominant' female that the cycles of the rest will adjust too hers.
Regarding the egg comment above, a human female has hundreds of thousands of them so for an immortal elf to go through them, even one a month, would be about 8000 years worth for 100,000 eggs, would still be very long. Considering birth rates of elves (and dwarves for that matter), it could be that elves ovulate only once or twice a year (if that) while their actual sloughing process is the 'standard' week. There are many women today with such irregular cycles. But this can cause problems with endometreosis and osteoperosis due to hormone levels.
For the 'too many half breeds' point perhaps human hormones are dominant over elves inducing pertility? Therefore if you want to increase the elven birth rate, have a couple humans around.
(Wife is an RN dealing with women's health - I have heard many such discussions with all sorts of gory details)
It has been suggested in various books that a dragon might have only a clutch a century. Combining this with the dragon conception thread, I just had horrible visions of a dragon with PMS.
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Biologist :)
Cormac
So you would be the first one to come to for proof why half-breeds as presented in fantasy cannot be created, right? So far as anyone I am aware of knows, it is impossible for one species to interbreed with another; this is, in fact, one of the definitions of 'species', is it not?
"In the year 7218 TE, it was discovered that there were no 'pre-breeds' left except inisolated corners of the world..."
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Cormac will confirm, but from my schoolboy Biology my recollection is that interbreeding is possible provided that you have same Genus, whereas Species is the next level down in classification.
I still have the following embedded in my head from when I was 11 years old (25 years ago!):
Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species
That's why Tigers can Breed with Lions - not the same species but same Genus.
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The definition of "Species" gets messed up as soon as you stop reading text books and walk out into the real world.
Here's a conundrum.
A type of seagull common from alaska, through Europe to Asia (following the Arctic Circle)
The Alaskan seagull CANNOT breed with the Siberean Seagull. (Does that make them different species?)
The Alaskan Seagull CAN breed with the European Seagull (Same Species?)
The European Seagull CAN breed with the Siberean Seagull (Same Speices ?) ... ??
Another example.
The Sitka deer (from Japan) is less than half the size of the European Red Deer. The Sitka deer has no antlers/horns; the Red deer has them in spades.
These were always considered to be separate species ... but when a herd of Sitka deer came in contact with a herd of Red deer in the Phoenix Park in Dublin (Ireland), they interbred to the point that some people argue that the Phoenix Park deer represent either a new, true-breeding species, or that the original two species are one and the same.
Typically, the offspring of "related" species within a Genus (between Lions and Tigers; or Ponys and Donkeys) will generate either no offspring, or infertile hybrids.
Even more interesting is that a fertilised mammalian egg can be implanted in virtually any mammalian host and grow to maturity (if there is sufficient room)
Thus cat embryos have been implanted in Rabbits. Dog embryos have been implanted in Cats. In Theory, a human could very easily be implanted in a Cow ! (Just imagine the conversation in the playground ... Your mother's a Cow ... yeah, what's your point ?)
This takes surrogacy to the next conceptual "level", and in the immediate future will put a lot of pressure on governments that currently track "Father" and "Mother" to break that down as
"Genetic Father" - (Sperm Donor)
"Genetic Mother" - (Egg Donor)
"Birth Mother" - (Surrogate or same as Egg Donor)
Guardian(s) - The designated adult(s) that take legal responsibility for decisions relating to the child
Custodian(s) - The designated adult(s) with whom the child lives on a part-timwe or full-time basis
Adoption/fosterage/et al should be legally re-addressed in this light for a very clear moral reason ... every child has the human right (under the UN conventions) to know their true parents, even if they have no contact with them. Additionally, from a medical point of view ... knowing the genetic parents of a person (and their medical histories) makes diagnosis of a variety of medical illnesses vastly easier.
Hmm - off topic. Sorry :)
Cormac
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Cormac, very interesting post.
I guess the bottom line is Elves + Human = Why not ? It's fantasy after all.
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Most interesting Cormac.
Not sure whether it warrents a Laugh point or Idea point so here's one of each!
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I study genetics ... how lawyers intends sorting out the mess that it generates ain't my concern :)
Cormac
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I don't think it's all that off topic.
Those same considerations could potentially carry over to fantasy - Remember in the Beastmaster a ritual was used to move a fetus from the human mother to a cow; we now know, thanks to Cormac, that htis is a sound medical procedure (assuming teleportation and the fact the the cow must have an enlarged womb, and... and... OK, the idea sucks. And I don't know what the point of the scene was anyway, but that's true of a lot of the scenes in that movie...
Where was I?
Oh, yes:
In Sorloc's world, Elves and Humans can interbreed, but the resulting issue has recessive traits - their offspring will always be a full blood version of the other parent; two half elves/half humans cannot bear issue.
This is my way of explaining why the entire world is not populated with half elves.
See, when you combine the phenonenal stats and special abilities of the elf with the human drive and reproduction system, well, I think the results would be obvious.
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Don't they believe that Neanderthals interbred with Cro-magnons?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_Extinction
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Topic of debate - the two definitely co-existed in very close proximity.
(In Middle-East - there is evidence of settlements of both existing in the SAME valley at more-or-less the same time ... unfortunately, without a time-machine, it's impossible to prove simultaneous co-habitation ... the closest an archaeologist can come to that is to prove co-existence to within a couple of hundred years).
Genetic traces have proven to be inconclusive to-date
Cormac
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Thus cat embryos have been implanted in Rabbits. Dog embryos have been implanted in Cats. In Theory, a human could very easily be implanted in a Cow ! (Just imagine the conversation in the playground ... Your mother's a Cow ... yeah, what's your point ?)
Not to mention the breast feeding debate.
I don't think it's all that off topic.
Those same considerations could potentially carry over to fantasy - Remember in the Beastmaster a ritual was used to move a fetus from the human mother to a cow; we now know, thanks to Cormac, that htis is a sound medical procedure (assuming teleportation and the fact the the cow must have an enlarged womb, and... and... OK, the idea sucks. And I don't know what the point of the scene was anyway, but that's true of a lot of the scenes in that movie...
And in the Omen you have a human(?) child born of a jackal - although the insemination process is left out. But in both cases, some leeway could be given if you are a high priest in an evil cult or the offspring of a (fallen) arch-angel.
Just a hair off topic but has anyone else found it odd that orcs breed with just about anything but not elves, even though in a Tolkein sense orcs are basically mutated elves?
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In a world that contains TL 16+ and Arcane magic, what our understanding of science does not matter.
When do women menstrate? If they have access to birth control herbs or magic, they do so when they damn well please.
In my campaign, this varies culturally. One of the reforms the PC Namarian is trying to bring to Rhakhaan is knowledge of contraceptives -- apprentice work for herbalists, healers, rangers, alchemists, and all other spellcasters.
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Nice spell list in RMCI (Midwifery or something like that it's called). Has a spell on it that would do the trick - contraception.
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;D being myself quite a lover of numbers and symbols i have decided to use the number "3" when changing female evels and theyr cycles so..
* instead of 9 months to make a child grow elves need 12 months (9+3 where 3 is 33.333% of 9)
* menstruation only 4 times every year and influenced by seasonal changes.
being elves magical creatures the experience its not painful and negative as in humans and so all the typical problems are not considered from the point of view of elves. in regards of fertility and interbreed chances i think that the problem its not worth all the thinking.. how many elvish character do we have that want to have childs with human characters? its a merely plot device, as a GM i make happen what i want. if the female player want to have a child with her fellow players human character let them do it, maybe make them do some researches to find some help that can rise the chances of giving birth to a child :D make them search for a book of "birth spells" now lost in some ancient fortress, so they (or some fellow mage) can learn those spells and use them when needed. I think that rules for these stuff are not very useful but some kind of "description" are funny and add realism. So pick a number/frequency you like (as i did.. i decided for "3", maybe you like more "4" or "7" ::) ) and do what you want.. faster and more funny ;D
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This topic is the entire reason I want a shadowworld t-shirt that says on the back:
SHADOW WORLD
Challenging gamers one menstruating elf at a time
Seriously though, this is the oddest topic I've ever run across on any forum...Way to raise the bar guys!
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Yeah.. and the discussion have been remarkable serious and to the point, without any bad jokes or stupid remarks.
Quite a pleasure to read the whole series of scientific/game mechanics arguments :)
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I love this place. You just never know what you are going to come across. I believe I asked a similar question years ago that was something like: "If elves are immortal, why isn't the world overpopulated with elven children?"
I believe the response I got was from Heike Kubasch. It went something like "Elves can choose when they become pregnant."
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"Elves can choose when they become pregnant."
I have always kept this answer, and it is another reason I do not like the idea of half elves. My brother convinced me to modify it to "elven women ovulate during moments of extreme feeling, like being in love, passion, or the fear and dread while being raped." Suddenly there were half elves again.
Gawds I hate half races. Sooo illogical.
lynn
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Presumably half-elves don't have to be the result of rape.
However, the obvious thing here is to hate elves.
As for the question of elf numbers, it hardly has to be the case that they can choose whether they become pregnant is the best answer to the question of why we're not over-run with stinky pointy-eared lettuce-munching hippies. The fact is that elves do die, for various reasons (violence, at least), so they need to breed just to maintain numbers. There could be lots of factors affecting the breeding rate that allow for a steady-state population of elves. So, speaking for myself, I wouldn't use the 'they can choose whether they get pregnant' reason.
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Elves dieing by violence...ahh. Some things are perfect togther, like pb&j.
Elves need and deserve more violence.
lynn
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There is probably one thing worse than a dwarven berserker with a hang over - an elf-maid whose husband that has been contemplating a flower for a week, had PMS for three months and two kids at home - the elder in the 45th year of the human equivalent 'teen years' and the younger on his 8th year of the 'terrible two's. No wonder that flower is looking good.
Elves dieing by violence...ahh. Some things are perfect togther, like pb&j.
Elves need and deserve more violence.
lynn
Alternately, come up with a really evil and powerful bad guy. The elves will get depressed and decide to leave. Those that stay and fight will a) die by violence if they lose or b) some die by vilolence and if they win, still get depressed and still leave. I see it as a win win situation - death by violence and no elves.
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I believe the response I got was from Heike Kubasch. It went something like "Elves can choose when they become pregnant."
Hmmm. I have always used the same idea for Elves in my campaigns. I thought the source was Dragaereans from Brust's Jhereg books, but am not sure.
Ciao,
Old Man
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This topic is the entire reason I want a shadowworld t-shirt that says on the back:
SHADOW WORLD
Challenging gamers one menstruating elf at a time
Seriously though, this is the oddest topic I've ever run across on any forum...Way to raise the bar guys!
I posited this question, because I have a female player that posed it to me.