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Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMC/RM2 => Topic started by: Malim on November 17, 2020, 02:12:54 PM
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So the spell law rules state that a spell cost 75% activity to cast, even a * spell.
So how does i.e. Paladin Strike spells work compared to a combat spell from beastmaster
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They still follow the same rules.
Take the Paladin 'Attack' spells on Arms Way (RMCompanion II). These are spells that buff an attack from +5 to +150. They still cost 75% activity, so these are spells that you cast in one round to buff your attack in the following round (note that the spell's duration is '1 round', but the spell description specifies the spell takes effect in the round after you cast it). You can't attack in the round you cast them.
Same goes for Beastmaster 'Combat' spells from Combat Enhancement (RMCompanion II). They cost 75% activity in the round you cast them, so you can't cast in that round. But depending on your level, they will last for later rounds (duration is 1 round/level).
So in general these spells were meant to be buffs you cast before attacking rather than buffs you cast while attacking.
RMSS I think tried to modify some of these to make them more useful to be cast while attacking. Instant spells in RMSS had been reduced IIRC to 10% activity, but that still meant they gave a -10 to attacks, so the bonuses to OB had to be modified to account for that. So the Paladin OB buff had to be improved to +15, to counter the -10 and still give a bonus.
RMU has done a better job of making these buffs castable while attacking by reducing the activity cost to 0%, so you can cast them in combat and without doing the mental gymnastics of adding 15 then subtracting 10.
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That all makes sense actually.
Now to Spell Users Companion page 66 Martial mastery.
How will that practical work in a combat situation?
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That all makes sense actually.
That does occasionally happen sometimes!
Now to Spell Users Companion page 66 Martial mastery.
How will that practical work in a combat situation?
Most of the spells there seem to trigger on the caster's next attack, so I think those are again spells that you cast one round to gain the benefit in the next round.
I'm not quite sure what to make of the spells that have '--' for duration. These seem rather problematic.
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Yes and it seems to me like there are spells in the RoCo, that are made without fully thinking about core Spell law rules.
But to me it makes little sense, that you use one full round to cast a spell, to get an extra crit next round. Then most of thoose spells are one trick pony spells in an combat!
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Yes and it seems to me like there are spells in the RoCo, that are made without fully thinking about core Spell law rules.
I would not be surprised if there are. Already by Companion I, people were introducing new initiative systems, and some were erroneously treating Instantaneous actions as effectively costing much less activity (e.g. in one you could cast several spells in a single round, so long as each was separated by 50 initiative points). I think it was a problem with a poorly chosen word: 'Instantaneous' just carries the connotation of taking no time/activity in English. And that's not what 'Instantaneous' meant. It really meant 'takes no prep rounds'. So something like 'No prep' spells would have been more accurate. Even just 'Swift' would have at least made clear that they still take some activity.
But to me it makes little sense, that you use one full round to cast a spell, to get an extra crit next round. Then most of thoose spells are one trick pony spells in an combat!
Yes, and that is why I prefer the way RMU is doing it. RMU makes them truly take no activity (just your instantaneous action for the turn), so you can use them easily in combat.
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I tried again but I just can't make four spells (the level 2, 3, 11, and 30 spells) from Martial Mastery in the Spell User's Companion make any sense according to the RM2 RAW. Their duration is '--', which makes them unlike almost all other spells on the list. The level 1 spell, which also has a duration '--', could still be useful since it allows you to magically stand up. But the other four spells seem to assume that you will be attacking in the same round as you cast the spell, and that is not allowed in the RM2 RAW (unless I guess you choose the optional rule in Spell Law to make Instantaneous spells cost 50% activity in the round they are cast, but even then, that would mean that all these attacks are at -50).
What I suspect is that the writer of this section was using one of the variant initiative systems in the Companions. The one explained in RMCompanion I for example lets casters cast multiple Instant spells per round. According to the core RAW, though, these spells would not function effectively. I would change the duration of those four spells to be the same as the other (and fully functional) spells on the list: namely, to have a duration of 'varies', with the text of the spell specifying that it applies to the caster's next attack.
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RoCo Note:
1) The info in the RoCo's was written and submitted by fans with some general editing and formatting.
2) When looking at the SUC you may need to go back to the RoCo book itself to see notes from the original article's author.
3) Watch out for power creep and specific spell lists can be very unbalancing.
RM2 Spell Basic Note:
1) In general RMSS SL cleaned up a lot of the lists and ideas presented in various RM2 spells, if you have the RMSS SL it s a good idea to find something close to it and then backwards compatibility it to RM2.
SUC pg 66:
I did a very quick look at list.
1) In general there are quite a few spells on the list that I saw were potential problems in many games and the list should probably be rewritten for most RM2 games and since IIRC RMC did some balancing of rules for any RMC game.
2) Look to other list that have been re-balanced for ideas on what to do.
MDC
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That helps a lot -- thanks Mark!
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From past discussions, IIRC in the old days of the RoCo's the idea was to provide fans a way to get material out to the general community (and sell product) and material was simply put into a book form.
One thing to remember just like now people want to see their material published and thus can take some short cuts on long term playability and balance vs other professions to get material published.
Also now just like then your group is probably different then other groups (and play styles) and thus something that works well in your group may not in other groups and or settings.
RM2 GMs and RMSS Spell Law:
Quite a few RM2 GM's I know use RMSS SL as it was redone from the RM2 lists but every spell list was not redone and that could be a problem, especially with the more powerful professions and lists.
Also depending on what initiative system you use it can make some spells more powerful in one system then in others, this can often be fixed with house rules.
MDC
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One that I see a big problem with is the disarm spell (I think rank 4, IIRC) if put into an item, or in general it would be problematic in most RM games as it is a simple save or lose your weapon.
MDC
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I did another quick look last night at the list in the SUC,
1) Strange that this list seems to have a large number of spells that say only one spell of this type can be active at a time. To me it seems to be a balancing mechanism.
Note: I looked at the RMSS Armsmaster lists Armor Mastery as it jumped out at me as also having this, one spell at one time idea, but it was much more limited in nature and referred to changing cloths into providing armor AT's. (Also a potential magic item problem in many games)
2) Some of the spells seem like artifact abilities to me for fairly low level spells for RM2, ie weapon used MA attack later to become kata IIRC and Armor does not affect AD skill use.
3) To me it seems like the idea was for the caster to cast the spells when in combat with a combatant but if the Monk was to move to another combatant then they would have to cast the spell again.
Rewriting: IMHO the list needs a lot of work in the terms updating to fit a core idea of list, new combat system(s) and rebalancing in terms of other spell lists.
One thing I think would be a huge mistake would be to simply assign a new duration to spells and call it good to be put into play....unless your RM2 game is all RM2 power professions and you want a Monk to have some more power to compete in that area.
MDC
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Yup.
...and I wouldn’t make it “next attack”, Hurin, or you’d have PCs not slowing down their teams to 10% movement due to prep(90%) where, every battle, would start with such an attack on Combat Turn (1).
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Yup.
...and I wouldn’t make it “next attack”, Hurin, or you’d have PCs not slowing down their teams to 10% movement due to prep(90%) where, every battle, would start with such an attack on Combat Turn (1).
Right, I can see how that would be a problem. There are some spells that specify they take effect in the next round, so maybe a duration of '1 round' and the spell description specifies that is the round after the spell is cast?
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* spells take 50% to cast
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* spells take 50% to cast
The default rule is that they take 75% (Spell Law, red band edition, p. 12, section 6.2, 'Time Required to Cast a Spell'), but there is an option within that same section of text to reduce it to 50%.
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The default rule is that they take 75% (Spell Law, red band edition, p. 12, section 6.2, 'Time Required to Cast a Spell'), but there is an option within that same section of text to reduce it to 50%.
Only for instantaneous spells, IIRC.
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The default rule is that they take 75% (Spell Law, red band edition, p. 12, section 6.2, 'Time Required to Cast a Spell'), but there is an option within that same section of text to reduce it to 50%.
Only for instantaneous spells, IIRC.
Yes, the option only applies to Instantaneous spells; normal spells always require 75% activity.
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So how does i.e. Paladin Strike spells work compared to a combat spell from beastmaster
Hi,
we never played it that way but always took the rule from some later Companion, that an instant spell, the ones with (*) , cost 10% action.
That allows all those classes with +Attack spells to basically use it every round (and drain power points in no time).
Note however, that (even if hasted), you can only cast one spell per round. That can get tricky. If the Paladin plans to attack and uses its Strike* spell, he cannot react to a sudden attack with a bladeturn/deflection (both instant too) . If he just announces a normal swing, he could do that.
It is possible to prepare another spell (90 % action) and cast an instant spell (often used for shield or bladeturn by our casters to survive till they finally get of the fire bolt).
We think, because it fits so neatly, it was exactly meant like that.
The original arms law, spell law are usually a little confusing, because they somehow sweat the original idea to be an addition to another RPG system (like AD&D) and not an own system. It gets a little better with the reworked RMC2 rules but a look into RMSS often helps to understand the ideas from my point of view.
Anyway RM was never used to be a fixed ruleset. Its a toolbox, make your own RPG with it.
The idea of a Paladin standing in front row holding off attacking enemys on weapon's point and then PAUSING one round (100% death penalty because he has no parry) to cast an instant spell never made any sense to us.
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* spells take 50% to cast
The default rule is that they take 75% (Spell Law, red band edition, p. 12, section 6.2, 'Time Required to Cast a Spell'), but there is an option within that same section of text to reduce it to 50%.
Yes and some very useful optional rule reduces instant spells to a 10% action which makes total sense to us.
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Note however, that (even if hasted), you can only cast one spell per round. That can get tricky. If the Paladin plans to attack and uses its Strike* spell, he cannot react to a sudden attack with a bladeturn/deflection (both instant too) . If he just announces a normal swing, he could do that.
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The idea of a Paladin standing in front row holding off attacking enemys on weapon's point and then PAUSING one round (100% death penalty because he has no parry) to cast an instant spell never made any sense to us.
That's why Paladins were not in the original core rules, but rather introduced later in Companion I (with further spells coming later still). In the same Companion I was where you find the first alternate initiative/action system as well. It seems the Paladin spells were designed with the new initiative/action system in mind, and didn't really fit very well with the old system. You don't find many (perhaps any?) instant +OB spells in the original Spell Law, I believe for that very reason. In fact you don't find any Paladin spells that do that either in Companion I; they were introduced only as additional Paladin spells in Companion II.
I don't think anyone ever envisioned the Paladin taking rounds off to cast Instantaneous spells. By the same token, the bonus from spells like Bladeturn and Deflections was set so high (-100 to the attack) that it seems clear they were in fact intended to virtually completely negate an attack, and were thus intended to be almost your whole activity for the turn; they weren't intended to be taken with a full OB attack on top. They saved your life-- they didn't allow you to do two full actions (entirely negating an opponent's attack and getting a full attack of your own) at once.
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By the same token, the bonus from spells like Bladeturn and Deflections was set so high (-100 to the attack) that it seems clear they were in fact intended to virtually completely negate an attack, and were thus intended to be almost your whole activity for the turn; they weren't intended to be taken with a full OB attack on top. They saved your life-- they didn't allow you to do two full actions (entirely negating an opponent's attack and getting a full attack of your own) at once.
I dont really see a problem here. Pure Arms user can use Adrenal Move Speed to get 2 attacks out (and those can be used to eat up an opponents parry and then get a "free" swing, or parry and attack) or just come with multiple attacks right away. Even the combination is possible. Usual practice for Martial Arts users (4 attacks wohoah).
So why not give a semi spell user or any character with the support of a magic user the chance to magically turn one of those attacks and maybe parry the other and see another day. It again burns magic points fast (Bladeturn/Deflection are considerably higher level spells) and if not cast on self but others basically takes the magic user out of the offensive.
We never really encounterd an instant spell, which should be slower. They are usually utility/defensive. If not, we figured they should not normal spells (Adrenal Focus of the NIghtblade, would not really work as a regular spell, ass the +attack Spells).
Sometimes having the Instant* Spell on a Base List is from my point of view the gadget of that given class, compared to non instant,in effect comparable, spells on open/closed lists. I have no example right now by heart, but I remember that we looked into comparisons like that several times in the last 35 years.
I personally think its kind of fun, if the usual semi spell user, who finds himself in as surprising combat situation, needs some rounds to get the defense and support for buddies up (Shield, Blur, Aura.... ). Makes a big difference to the prepared situation where the situations turns around and a pure arms opponent better parries till some gadget spells wear off the first time.
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So in general these spells were meant to be buffs you cast before attacking rather than buffs you cast while attacking.
Yes that is my take on it that these were designed as combat preparation.
So for example a Paladin makes the sign of their holy symbol while offering a prayer before combat to cast their spell.
(For Channeling spells, the caster is assumed to have one hand free, is able to speak clearly,) RMC SL p25.
Quote from RMC I p106:
"COMBAT
Essentially, it is assumed that if a character is engaged, then he is in a combat situation. A player in combat also assumes that other actions cannot be performed such as spell casting..."
Some of the Beastmaster spells have 100' range and a target. Here the Beastmaster stands back and buffs their animal minion that is in combat, e.g. Bladeturn.
Other semi-spell users might make a maneuver to get themselves out of combat to re-buff.
And of course if foe is down, a re-buff is able to happen.
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Yes, and I'm just pointing out that the core RM2 rules lacked a category similar to what D&D currently calls a 'bonus action' spell: that is, a spell meant to be cast while you also make a full OB attack (e.g. Paladin Smites). The thing that prevented that in the core RM2 rules was that the minimum casting cost for a spell (even an instantaneous spell) was 75% (or 50% if you use the optional rule).
This was why RM2 Companions and then later editions of RM (RMSS/FRP and now RMU) successively reduced the cost of instantaneous spells and introduced spells designed to function as buffs cast while taking full or close to full attacks.
I am cool with that. I think it is good that there is a class of spells you can cast for little to no activity, as buffs -- these are especially useful for Semis like the Paladin. It is just important to note that there are some original core spells that need to be rebalanced, and possibly changed to be no longer 'instant', now that the definition of instant has changed and the activity cost of casting the spell has been essentially eliminated. Some attack spells, especially area of effect attack spells, should no longer be instant if instants cost 0% activity, because they were never intended to allow you to get two attacks per round, or make mass, area-of-effect attacks for 0% activity.
(Note the case with Adrenal Moves is not entirely analogous. Adrenal Moves take a round of preparation, whereas an Instant spell by definition does not).
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Sokrates,
Cab you explain further "use up opponents parry and then get a free swing"?
MDC
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In General:
I used to game with some of the authors that wrote stuff for RoCo (1-3) I am not going to go into more detail as they do not want to be known, but in general I can say that they created a custom combat system that used the ideas like instant spells and then another combat system that had other ideas incorporated in it.
Some of the ideas in the RoCo's say that they are to be used with specific combat systems.
In general I think that most if not all combat systems have somethings they do not do well and others that they do very well and your group needs to find the one the works for them.
I also think that combat has come a long way from the 80's and ideas such as opportunity attacks, interruption of spell casting, knockback and other ideas can be tough to implement in some of the older RM combat systems or I should say I do not think all of the modern ideas can be easily adapted to the RAW combat systems in the past books.
MDC
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Thanks for that insight Marc. It helps us to understand why so many of those spells from the companions don't seem to work with the core rules!
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Its Mark and then a C, Marc is someone else and his last name begins with an R, IIRC.
MDC
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Thanks for the insight Markc
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I also think that combat has come a long way from the 80's and ideas such as opportunity attacks, interruption of spell casting, knockback and other ideas can be tough to implement in some of the older RM combat systems or I should say I do not think all of the modern ideas can be easily adapted to the RAW combat systems in the past books.
All hail RMU?
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Yes all hail.. well... I just dont like that I dont get my level bonuses. It seems ill be very focused on few skills and very narrow in my development.. From what ive seen of RMU I sadly ( yes sadly) rather wanna play 5e.
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I did not see anything in RMU B1 or B2 that really fixes the issue, they had rules but to me and others they did not really make sense.
I reserve judgment for RMU-JDE (RMU-J Dale Edition as I am treating it as if it is entirely new).
MDC
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If you play by phases in RMU, you can interrupt spellcasting just by making a quick attack (e.g. 2 AP) that gets resolved before the spellcasting is finished. There's no interruption per se but a lot of attack results will make casting harder or impossible. There are also some rules handling attacks against people moving through your space.
There's nothing about knockback in A&CL but it will appear in the fighting styles in the character companion, along with a lot of other combat options. Which reminds me I need to post something about companions....
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If you play by phases in RMU, you can interrupt spellcasting just by making a quick attack (e.g. 2 AP) that gets resolved before the spellcasting is finished. There's no interruption per se but a lot of attack results will make casting harder or impossible. There are also some rules handling attacks against people moving through your space.
There's nothing about knockback in A&CL but it will appear in the fighting styles in the character companion, along with a lot of other combat options. Which reminds me I need to post something about companions....
1) Thank all deities, my quote button works again since the web site move.
In general I have found that when something has not appeared in RM2 or other RM and then their is a rule in RMU people generally assume that means RMU is better.
In general I still see RM2 Cores combat (with all of its issues) better then RMU B1 or RMUB2 combat system. I know nothing about RMU-JDE
That is not the case in RMU B1 or RMU B2 as I feel as I have stated before RM2's Core combat system is better then RMU B1-2.
As I said above I know nothing about the change to the RMU system since JDale took over so I cannot comment on that system.
MDC