Topic: Lurker?s questions about Rhakhaan

[Bishop Odo]

I have been reworking the maps of Jaiman, and Haakatine, in an effort to lean CC3  and I have a few questions, and yes, I have tendency to over think things.

Anyone know what the population of Haakatine is, Lethys is 50k, so I was thinking about 30-40k ?

What?s the forest situation like, considering deforestation, even with Druids added to the mix, what?s the main energy source for Rhakhaan if not the major cities? I was leaning towards sea coal.

Considering Haalkatines geography, I was thinking of Germany and Neuschwanstein Castle, from one angle it looks like it?s in the mountains, yet from the other way is very close to the plains if not the foothills. 

Those, where the easiest questions, I was reading the Haakatine book and it was described as a medieval society, I would think that they would be more of pre-industrialized, high Renaissance culture.  This is where, I wish there was a UPP or Traveller technology scale designed for fantasy games.  Considering the advanced Elvish societies, a little leakage by osmosis would be expected from exports.  I would imagine that at the upper levels of society technology like, steam radiator heating, cast iron Franklin stoves, indoor water closets would be appearing, water canals, and locks. I was thinking Elizabethan England, without firearms of course.  I was just hoping for some feedback,. 

[fac]

Somebody in the forum devised his game as victorian horror and it was based in Haalkitaine too.

SW has technology levels too to help us to visualize the setting, I see both Lethys and Haalkitaine as Renaissance, along with Sel-Kai, Kaitaine and N?mar-Tol islands. But jaimani elves are not specially inclined to technology.

[Hurin]

I may be reading this incorrectly, but when I read the Haalkitaine book, I don't see too much evidence of a Renaissance society.

What technologies do we associate with the Renaissance? I would think things like the printing press and gunpowder, as well as the development of the scientific method. I don't see any evidence of those in Rhakhaan. In my campaign, Rhakhaan is a late medieval society (though of course everyone is free to interpret it in their own way).

Late medieval societies (and indeed renaissance ones as well) tended to use animals, wind, wood and water as their main power sources. In Kulthea, we could probably add Magic (Essence, especially).Coal really didn't come into general use (in our world, anyway) until much later. 

[Der Graumantel]

In the Haalkitaine book we have a printing press. The Book says gunpowder doesn't work because of essaence flows and Rhakhaan is presented as having tech level Renaissance in the MA 4, if I remember correctly.

[Hurin]

Ah, I guess I stand corrected!

I'll have to reread Haalkitaine...

[Bishop Odo]

That?s one of the problems, I see, in general with fantasy gaming.  Generally we use European history as the touchstone so to speak, the terms Renaissance or rebirth, Medieval or Middle Ages all relate to the European experience. That?s ok for player reference, but do the terms Renaissance really apply to a culture or planet that has never suffered though the ?dark ages.? That why I was looking for a technological scale that doesn?t trivialize the lower levels in favor of the galaxy spanning technology. 

Firearms seem to be the defining technology, yet if we remove them from the equation, what becomes possible and probable. Considering that the ancient Greeks had water clocks and primitive steam engines, would steam heating or cast iron stoves be such far fetched improbity some 10,000 years later.   

About, energy, coal was burned in Elizabethan London, it was limited because of transportation issues more than anything thing else, peat was burned even eariler, I believe.  Use of wood as a long term fuel, would be problematic, considering deforests. Even with an aggressive forestry program from an organized government, when would coal become an viable alternative.

[egdcltd]

My personal opinion is that the single most important piece of early technology is the Gutenberg press. This enabled the (comparatively) easy reproduction and distribution of knowledge, compared to scribe duplication and block printing. Without this distribution system, knowledge was frequently lost for years, or not distributed widely enough in the first place for full advantage to be taken of it.

[Guillaume]

In the Haalkitaine book we have a printing press. The Book says gunpowder doesn't work because of essaence flows and Rhakhaan is presented as having tech level Renaissance in the MA 4, if I remember correctly.

Gunpowder of some kind or another does work, ask to the few people that use(d) it. 

Rhakhaan is IMHO a late renaissance kingdom ( 17th/18th Century ) with some discrepancies. They have printing press, they have elevators, they can have some kind of steam power ( but magic is easier, cheaper and more reliable ). There's still a real feudal system, but the literacy and the knowledge makes it so there's a lot of educated people. Thus making for a  middle class more important than on Earth. Add to that the effects of the Crowns, the Loremasters and a few other stuff and you can get something ( like a realm ) that at first sight looks weird and on the brink of collapse on itself but that is quite sound.

[Mhairtrym]

One thing that has to be considered when looking at any fantasy world is the effects magic would play in it.  One simply fact using earth as an comparison will never be quite right.

For example it would not be out of place for the upper class to have indoor lighting due to permanent light spells on globes or other objects.  The medicine level would be in some ways beyond what even modern medicine can do.  You mention transportation of coal being an issue, but with magic alot of that can be overcome.  Magic could also slow down technological developement, why build elevators when you could levitate said objects.  You speak of deforestation but with spells trees could be replaced. 

Anyway my point is that magic will effect the society, or in this case the city.  Sadly fantasy is simply that and pulled from our imaginations, but we do pull alot from our world's own past.  Just depends on how much magic is integrated into the everyday life of the citizens.  Just thought it would be something to consider. 

[Bishop Odo]

Generally speaking, I look to mundane technology to advance a society, and magic to give it spice.  After all, every farmer would benefit from a new plow or letting a field lie fallow for a year, but how many have a Druid helping increase the crop yield.  The paradigm of all characters that have a high intelligence must naturally be mages is old and tired.  Why are all the great minds like de Vinci considered mages?  I generally look to the mundane technology first; after all there are a lot of variables to the equation.  For instance, a Magician Guild would promote development of the craft and maintain price fixing, but a strong non magical government would see that control as a possible rival for power.  Think of the church in the middle ages, and the papal vs. king power rivalry that existed thought out that period of history.  Game mechanics also play into the equation, spell list, duration, spell points and memorized spells all play into the equation.  Would magic slow the development of mundane science technology?  I just don?t see it, as long as information and ideas can be communicated through books, using a printing press, the natural course of events would lead to more mundane advancements.

In a city of 30.000, or a nation of millions, I just don?t see magic being used to heat and provide cooking for 75-80% of the population.  The need to address transportation issues in commerce, would facilitate both a developed road system and if feasible a cannel system with locks. 

In the typical struggle for power we could add, merchants, and guilds, to the typical mix of temples, mage guild and nobles, making for a more diverse political environment. 

[Elrik]

"After all, every farmer would benefit from a new plow or letting a field lie fallow for a year, but how many have a Druid helping increase the crop yield"

I think that happens more then not. It would become a personal decision for a being with that power to do something like that, but I think it happens. "Orhan loves you! Just look at your Fields!" or "The Sea Dragon adores you! Just look at your Fields." Those are miracles right??? Most people are taught to fear Magic, or nature. So they avoid it. At the same time there is only so much a single person can do, and only so many are capable of doing it. If you spend your days just reviving fields you would get very little done... so perhaps you hold off. I never got the impression magic was a replacement for tools.

A Blessing on the lands and farms could be done during the Festivals. A large group of Priests or Druids (depending upon the location and mind set) across the empire, go out and bless the fields? Could a lone priest go around his parish and bless the lands - that could very well be the thing you are talking about. I would say it is all in how you present it, also the Priests are not at the beck and call of the serfs, so it has to be special.

"The paradigm of all characters that have a high intelligence must naturally be mages is old and tired."

I have never heard that! I would think that the Dumbest would be so ambitious to be mages. The things they have to do and face to gain their magic. The places they have to go and the deals they have to make. Maybe I am a Mage bigot?

[egdcltd]

A Blessing on the lands and farms could be done during the Festivals. A large group of Priests or Druids (depending upon the location and mind set) across the empire, go out and bless the fields? Could a lone priest go around his parish and bless the lands - that could very well be the thing you are talking about. I would say it is all in how you present it, also the Priests are not at the beck and call of the serfs, so it has to be special.

That's not so different from how things used to be. Many of our present day festivals have their origins in such. The main difference is that in a fantasy game, the spell would be more likely work.

[Elrik]

"The main difference is that in a fantasy game, the spell would be more likely work."

I have been to a few of those festivals (ummmm Really Real World)... lots of beer! No noticeable growth.

[egdcltd]

"The main difference is that in a fantasy game, the spell would be more likely work."

I have been to a few of those festivals (ummmm Really Real World)... lots of beer! No noticeable growth.

Well, I thought of saying something along the lines that the difference would be that in a fantasy world, the spells would actually work, but decided that might offend some people, so rephrased it.

[Elrik]

I hear you and agree. And agree that there is no reason to slap at someones faith.

[thrud]

Technological advances vs magical ones?
Why reinvent the wheel all over again?
I'm sure there are some hardcore tech researchers but magic would certainly slow progress down.

[metallion]

How accessible is magic to the common people in your campaign?

If your local peasant can't afford to have, say, broken bones or kidney stones healed at the temple, then as far as they're concerned temple healing does not exist, and scientific inquiry will proceed apace.  That goes double if your local middle-class can't afford to have them treated, and tenfold if minor nobility can't afford to have minor lacerations attended to within a half hour.

The same goes for any other technology you can think of:  if magi and priests aren't standing by waiting for some commoner to need their services for a few bronze; if alchemists aren't cranking out talismans of haste to couriers and stone destruction to miners for less than the cost of a small house; the magic may as well not exist and people will be looking for a way to do the things they do faster, better, cheaper -- and the "Magic obsoletes technology" argument holds no water.

Now, if someone like the Loremasters are actually discouraging inquiry into certain areas of knowledge, that would at least be internally consistent...

[RandalThor]

How accessible is magic to the common people in your campaign?

If your local peasant can't afford to have, say, broken bones or kidney stones healed at the temple, then as far as they're concerned temple healing does not exist, and scientific inquiry will proceed apace.  That goes double if your local middle-class can't afford to have them treated, and tenfold if minor nobility can't afford to have minor lacerations attended to within a half hour

The same goes for any other technology you can think of:  if magi and priests aren't standing by waiting for some commoner to need their services for a few bronze; if alchemists aren't cranking out talismans of haste to couriers and stone destruction to miners for less than the cost of a small house; the magic may as well not exist and people will be looking for a way to do the things they do faster, better, cheaper -- and the "Magic obsoletes technology" argument holds no water.

Now, if someone like the Loremasters are actually discouraging inquiry into certain areas of knowledge, that would at least be internally consistent...

I tend to prefer magic items to less common, and with the RM system's non-magical bonuses for items it is possible.

As far as the healing goes, that will largely be determined on a community-to-community basis. In a larger community, the peasants probably don't have access to the temples's healing magics usually. In smaller, close-knit communities, the priest(s) probably know everyone and will find it hard to say no (and probably doesn't want to say no).

As the majority of the fantasy games I am either in or run are based upon a modified middle-ages technology any technological advances are extremely rare so they are only found in the hands of the rich & powerful.

I don't think that the Loremasters actively discourage technological advancement - mostly I feel that is a product of having other avenues of learning, i.e. magic. We here on Earth would likely be less advanced technologically if we had workable magic to use & learn, as resources would have been diverted to the study of magic to get things done.

[Elrik]

I think in small communities the Priests are asking for donations, so there is some expectation and obligation to help as best they can. The difference in needs of a large temple to a small temple must be light years. In the big city the temples are competing, constantly training who they can, buying supplies and foods and animals ect. In a small community the temple it is a shrine or small building and most of the people donate time to repair or build on and maybe even take turns feeding the Priest(s) or donating food. The donated money would be part of the Tith that goes up the hill to the larger centres. As long as the village could offer money...

[Mhairtrym]

- mostly I feel that is a product of having other avenues of learning, i.e. magic. We here on Earth would likely be less advanced technologically if we had workable magic to use & learn, as resources would have been diverted to the study of magic to get things done.

Yeah that was my thought when I mentioned the idea of magic affecting technology advancement.  How much money from patrons, such as goverments, churchs even guilds is diverted into magic research to come up with solutions, over technology ones.  Even if after hours, monthes or years they decide magic would not be the feasible solution it was time that could of been spent on a more mudane solution.