Author Topic: What is the Unlife?  (Read 3263 times)

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Offline Hurin

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What is the Unlife?
« on: September 05, 2020, 10:56:27 AM »
I am putting together a new RMU campaign in Shadow World, and I'm thinking of focusing it around a kind of zombie apocalypse initiated by the priests of Unlife. I've played in Kulthea a fair bit, so I've read a bit about the Unlife, but if I'm going to make it the centerpiece of the campaign, I want to know as much as I can about it. What is the most explicit description of the Unlife? Was there any? Has anyone thought of a cool way to explain it in a little more concrete detail?
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Offline Jenkyna

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2020, 01:27:15 PM »
What is the most explicit description of the Unlife? Was there any? Has anyone thought of a cool way to explain it in a little more concrete detail?

I believe the earliest description was in the Loremaster module The Iron Wind.

I always saw the Unlife as something akin to a natural constant or a negative energy that exists beyond even the Void, and from which all darkness and negative energy flow. Similar concepts might be The Nameless One from the works of Raymond E. Feist, The Negative Plane from D&D, The Abyss from Andromeda might also fit. I don't see it as a being per se, but more like a negative power that influences & corrupts other beings, and then works through them to spread. It's never really been clear to me if it even has a consciousness, and it may just exist as a corrupting influence.

I think one thing that is clear is that you can't fight the Unlife directly; the PC's can only fight its agents. Even when you win, it's only a matter of time before more fall under it's influence.

I would start with the description in The Iron Wind though.

Offline terefang

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2020, 02:42:10 PM »
the account of "elor once dark" explains some of the twisted philosophy.

* the unlife is basically the anti-thesis of life

* with dark-esseance being the corrupted counterpart of esseance

* the negative energy (plane) is somewhat the elemental correspondance to positive (life) energy

* i also see the corrupting influence of the void (outer realms) or beyond the pales, also the agothu.


* lets say that the undead/unlife are a mockery of life as imagined by the (great) old ones , if they have imagination at all.
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Offline terefang

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2020, 02:48:46 PM »
i also think that there is a distinction among the three groups:

* the lords of orhan use esseance for creation, the benefit and evolution of life.

* the dark lords use dark-esseance to destroy, suppress and conquer life.

* the unlife simply want to change/corrupt life to its (own standards) twisted mockery image.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2020, 03:17:25 PM »
Thanks for the input. The Iron Wind does talk about the Unlife as a force, and the Master Atlas gives a bit more, especially about the idea of the Unlife as a kind of anti-essence. I think that is about as specific as we ever get?

I'm fine with keeping the Unlife as a shadowy force that you can't ever really see or defeat entirely. If it is anti-essence, though, would Unlife forces be especially attracted to or antagonized by Essence magic?
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Offline Jenkyna

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2020, 07:07:54 PM »
I think that is about as specific as we ever get?

Think so, but we do get a lot of information about its agents.

would Unlife forces be especially attracted to or antagonized by Essence magic?

That's an interesting thought. One thing that is mentioned in a few places is that the agents of the Unlife seek to convert powerful mages, and if they can't, then they destroy them. You can certainly think of them as positive and negative canceling each other out, but the surface motivations are very human.



Offline MisterK

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2020, 04:53:50 AM »
I essentially see the Unlife as stasis, regression to a state of nothingness. Basically, where life (and the Essaence) is growth and change and thirst for existence, the Unlife is yearning for the ultimate peace that is nothingness - where no pain and no emotion exist.
It is separate from the planes of existence - in a way, the Unlife doesn't *exist* because that would be a negation of its very principle. It is simply the antithesis of existence.
And it is probably one of the most misunderstood principles, because it attracts entities and people that do not share the ultimate goal and believe that the means (destruction of life) are similar to the end (absence of existence). In the end, even the tools of the Unlife will be dust.

Offline terefang

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2020, 04:48:00 PM »
If it is anti-essence, though, would Unlife forces be especially attracted to or antagonized by Essence magic?

hmm ...

users of esseance (the arcane) would be opposed to those using the dark-(anti-)esseance,
basically like matter and anti-matter or electrons and positrons.

but then the relationship of both of the former to the essence, channeling and mentalism realms would be like the relationship of light to am/fm-radio or gamma-radiation (em-waves).
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Offline terefang

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2020, 04:52:52 PM »
I essentially see the Unlife as stasis, regression to a state of nothingness. ... in a way, the Unlife doesn't *exist* because that would be a negation of its very principle. It is simply the antithesis of existence.

i dont see it like this but rather our Prime Material (in a D&D-ish sense) as being our "Normal" and the Unlife being "Totally Strange" or being of "Total Strangeness" to our normal in orthogonal way.

since esseance and (unlife-)dark-esseance may be opposites but both already from outside of our Prime Material only anti-matter as such can be the anti-thesis of our physical existance.

also the fact that dark-esseance does not instantly obliberate but rather change or corrupt normal existance is a hint to being an orthogonal concept.
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Offline Jenkyna

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2020, 01:18:37 AM »
I essentially see the Unlife as stasis, regression to a state of nothingness. Basically, where life (and the Essaence) is growth and change and thirst for existence, the Unlife is yearning for the ultimate peace that is nothingness - where no pain and no emotion exist.
It is separate from the planes of existence - in a way, the Unlife doesn't *exist* because that would be a negation of its very principle. It is simply the antithesis of existence.

Overall what you are suggesting is a good way to look at it. I think it does exist, but in a way that is outside the limited scope of understanding. Even the K'ta'viir seem to have very limited - if any - knowledge of the unlife. Some of them like Ondoval or Kadæna certainly served its ends, although it seems they did so unknowingly.

And it is probably one of the most misunderstood principles, because it attracts entities and people that do not share the ultimate goal and believe that the means (destruction of life) are similar to the end (absence of existence). In the end, even the tools of the Unlife will be dust.

Exactly, one can't get so lost in the motivations of its tools that you forget that it seeks annihilation for everything.

i dont see it like this but rather our Prime Material (in a D&D-ish sense) as being our "Normal" and the Unlife being "Totally Strange" or being of "Total Strangeness" to our normal in orthogonal way.

That would seem to fit the descriptions of the Void and the experience of the Void that led to the insanity that turned Ondoval into a tool of the Unlife.

Offline SobekRa

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2020, 12:18:32 PM »
I've always liked the distinction that's been made in SW where the Unlife does not equal Undead.

Offline MisterK

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2020, 12:05:54 PM »
Overall what you are suggesting is a good way to look at it. I think it does exist, but in a way that is outside the limited scope of understanding. Even the K'ta'viir seem to have very limited - if any - knowledge of the unlife. Some of them like Ondoval or Kadæna certainly served its ends, although it seems they did so unknowingly.
I think this would breach the official timeline. The first manifestations of the Unlife on Kulthea appear between SEI 2000 and SEI 3000 as per SWMA4 (p15). Earlier contact of K'Taa'Viiri with alien powers were with the Void (Agothu), apparently. The arrival of the Unlife in the Kulthean system would probably be related to the passage of Sa'Kain in SEI 1950 (along with the appearance of the Dark Gods, even though both are not directly related) - this was nearly explicit in the master timeline PDF (but is not indicated in the SWMA4 timeline). It is also indicated in Emer III timeline, but is oddly shifted to SEI 1900.

I would assume that the original K'Taa'Viiri had no knowledge of the Unlife, which might explain why they made no attempt to control it (as opposed to planar forces) or at least develop protections against it.

Offline terefang

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2020, 07:46:11 PM »
That would seem to fit the descriptions of the Void and the experience of the Void that led to the insanity that turned Ondoval into a tool of the Unlife.

looking at SWMA

Quote
The Unlife is a dark power—a force for total destruction and death—origi-
nating in another universe, perhaps the ‘negative’ of this one.
Unlike the Dark Gods, the inhabitants of the Pales, and even
the Void (whose actions and purpose seem unfathomable), the
Unlife is a single power with many servants and incarnations,
all bent on annihilation.

hmm ... have to think
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Offline terefang

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2020, 11:31:31 PM »
SWMA 3th Edition:
Quote
The Older Ones are ancient spirits, eerie demigods and their servants who predate life on the Shadow World and have no connection with the Essænce.
and
Quote
Dark cults worship Charón. They consider the zenith to be a time of particular importance, a time when servants of the Unlife are able to leave their home on Charón and come to the Shadow World.
so the Dark Gods are of the Unlife ?
Quote
The Unlife itself is not a single intelligent entity. It is a collective energy which may or may not possess what could be called ‘awareness;’ its servants, however, are all driven by essentially the same goal.
...
The Unlife itself cannot be seen or otherwise detected in this universe; it is so alien that there are no common reference points. In fact, the most perceptive of the masters of Essænce can barely detect the Unlife as a ‘void’ or an absence of the usual ‘background’ Essænce which is everywhere.
and
Quote
Individually, the Dark Gods are the most intrinsically powerful of the ‘evil’ factions. They are not driven by one implacable will like the Unlife ...
a contradiction ?
or do the Dark Gods use Anti-Essænce for their own ends?

then in SWMA 4th Edition
Quote
Undead are beings that are not truly alive by the standard definition; nor are they quite dead. ... By their very nature they are of the Unlife.
so Undead are Unlife ? or unalive ?

Quote
Eog /White: Can limit the powers of Dark Essence (e.g., Essence originating from the Unlife or dark gods or their minions).
so the Dark Gods and the Unlife use the same Energy Form of Anti-Essænce ?

Quote
It has been theorized that without the “Positive Essænce,” the “Negative Essænce” of the Unlife could not exist. It is even believed that, should the Unlife somehow succeed in its horrible desire to absorb the entire Essence of the world, it would itself be destroyed. This might be what the Unlife seeks: complete annihilation.
even of itself ? in the end?

basically, all the above reinforces my idea that the “Unlife” is actually orthogonal to:

  • the demons wherether Void, Pale or Beyond
  • the basic concept of Essænce and Dark Essænce (although the Unlife utilizes it)
  • Good and Evil

T
I'd swallow cthulhu whole, with sushi and soy-sauce.

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Offline Garnaal

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2020, 08:26:27 AM »

so the Dark Gods are of the Unlife ?
The Unlife itself is not a single intelligent entity. It is a collective energy which may or may not possess what could be called ‘awareness;’ its servants, however, are all driven by essentially the same goal.
...
The Unlife itself cannot be seen or otherwise detected in this universe; it is so alien that there are no common reference points. In fact, the most perceptive of the masters of Essænce can barely detect the Unlife as a ‘void’ or an absence of the usual ‘background’ Essænce which is everywhere.

and

Individually, the Dark Gods are the most intrinsically powerful of the ‘evil’ factions. They are not driven by one implacable will like the Unlife ...
a contradiction ?
or do the Dark Gods use Anti-Essænce for their own ends?
so the Dark Gods and the Unlife use the same Energy Form of Anti-Essænce ?

It has been theorized that without the “Positive Essænce,” the “Negative Essænce” of the Unlife could not exist. It is even believed that, should the Unlife somehow succeed in its horrible desire to absorb the entire Essence of the world, it would itself be destroyed. This might be what the Unlife seeks: complete annihilation.


In one of my campaigns one of the dark gods is actively helping characters to block Ondoval. The rationale: "I am a god. I am eternal. What am I going to do with an eternity of time, when some upstart K'ta'viir destroys all my delicious little playthings? When it's all gone, all that's left is an eternity of boredom!
Unlife is like entropy. It just is. Sure, ultimately it'll all end. Some day. In a whimper. That's no reason to get it all over with in a hurry. Let's enjoy it while it lasts."




Offline Hurin

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2020, 11:22:01 AM »
What would you say the relationship is then between a Dark God such as Klysus, whose portfolio includes death, and the Unlife?
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Offline Mider

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2020, 11:56:31 AM »
I would think the two are totally opposed, death is a state that can be controlled  and utilized by the Dark God, but the Unlife seems to be for the utter destruction to the point of becoming atoms and energy.

Offline Garnaal

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2020, 05:07:17 AM »
What would you say the relationship is then between a Dark God such as Klysus, whose portfolio includes death, and the Unlife?
Listen little Godling. The unessence is inimical to life. Sure. It hungers, it eats and has an instinct to destroy life. But lots of things are inimical to life: acids, plasma, nether, hard radiation, extreme gravity.... These are all just tools, a means to an end and it's up to you as a God to decide to what extend you allow these instincts to dictate your actions. Do you give in to them or not? Does giving in just feel good in the short run? What are the consequences in the long run? Do you even want to think about these things? Fact is that there can be no death or undead unless there was life first. Undead does not procreate without life, so it's ultimately stagnant and boring. Without procreation we run out of playthings, so like it or not, we need the little buggers. For entertainment.

But in the end, it's all up to you. As Gods we're above such petty notions as morality; just do whatever you feel like doing.  Enjoy!

Offline Mider

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2020, 12:16:12 PM »
I just finished reading the Green Gryphon again.  The Unlife from that seems to be fed from the hopelessness or despair of dying, not from the death itself, that kind of ends the feeding.  The torturing of a soul or body with a lot of pain mixed in seems to be the favorite.   But in looking at Xaar, the unlife orb seemed to feed on death or destruction, I might be reading it wrong.

Offline PiXeL01

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Re: What is the Unlife?
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2020, 05:57:32 PM »
I just finished reading the Green Gryphon again.  The Unlife from that seems to be fed from the hopelessness or despair of dying, not from the death itself, that kind of ends the feeding.  The torturing of a soul or body with a lot of pain mixed in seems to be the favorite.   But in looking at Xaar, the unlife orb seemed to feed on death or destruction, I might be reading it wrong.

This makes Unlife sound like a living entity akin to the Horrors of Earthdawn. From my limited delving into Shadow World my understanding of this phenomenon is that it’s goal is the eradication of life, not so much existence itself. This could also be a reason for undead being among the tools.
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