Topic: Skill ranks above 30 and lvl bonus lvl 20+

[Malim]

I have a lvl 23 bashkar.
There is a major flaw in the system at high lvls... you just dont get any better.
30 ranks + ½ skills points pr ranks and lvl bonus stops at lvl 20 afaik..
what do you do in your setting?

[Ecthelion]

For skill ranks we never had a problem. Progression gets slower and slower and starting at 31 ranks you only get +1 bonus for every two ranks. In our game it led to a bit higher diversification of skills because characters then starting learning some new skills they did not care about before.

Regarding the level bonuses, during our RM2 times we used the rules from RM Companion 2 which revised the level bonuses a bit. IIRC with this (perhaps also with a later Companion) came a change where a level bonus that progressed at +3/lvl until level20 would progress at +1/lvl at level 21+, a level bonus of +2/lvl until level 20 would progress at +0.5/lvl at level 21+ and a +1/lvl would increase no further after level 20. With this the level bonuses don't stop completely. Now that we are playing RMSS/RMFRP there aren't any level bonuses anymore but only a one time professional bonus at level 1. So we are used to level bonus no increasing  .

[Tommi]

To me that feature is not flaw but bonus

However you
In RM2 it is mentioned (IIRC in same area that secondary skills and costs are listed in Char&campaign law) that fighters lvl bonus +3/lvl to combat is +1/lvl after 20th level. Thus Rogue would not gain the benefit. Bashkar is essentially fighter and should get the +1/lvl after lvl 20. 

However Baskar is from RMC3? (optional char) and in some of the companions there was optional rule (that my group uses) that all +3/lvl are transformed to +1/lvl and +2/lvl are +0,5/lvl.

For high level NPCs I've continued to buy ranks to main weapon. It is expensive but two ranks and level bonus is totally +2/lvl (and that is meaningful). 35th level fighter has 30 better weapon skill than 20th level...

Edit. Posting delayed and Ecthelion already posted the revised level bonuses.

[Spectre771]

I'd like to toss my 2-cents in on this.

The level bonuses stop at Level 20, but I don't see that as a flaw to the game either.  I think it helps keep the game power levels in check and does make it challenging.  Balrogs are *supposed* to be extremely difficult to kill.  As your Bashkar hits level 21+, he should have a lot of other skills that are very high up in rank that will allow him to deal with the Balrog; Two Weapon Combo, Reverse Stroke, Stunned Maneuver, Adrenal moves, Tumble Evade, Tumble Attack, etc.  And HOPEFULLY, he knows to parry!  Ideally, he would also have other companions there to assist him in the battle.  By my estimation, that Balrog should be toast with 3-4 level 21+ PCs attacking it.

You can easily opt to have the level bonus simply NOT stop at level 20, but then you're allowing for over powered PCs while the Creatures don't get the boost.  The stats/levels/difficulty of the creatures were created and balanced for RM PCs with level bonuses stopping at level 20.  If you give the PCs free level bonuses up and up, what about the creatures?  Do you also balance out the game and give the creatures limitless level bonuses as well?

There is another thread that has a lot of good thoughts on the profession bonuses.

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=8498.msg108794#msg108794

And I know there is at least one more that discusses an option to Skill Rank bonuses beyond the higher levels.  10 ranks at +5, 10 ranks at +2, 10 ranks at +1, 10 ranks at + 1/2.  It's very similar to the point you are making here.  At higher levels, there are diminishing returns.  But at higher levels, you have a lot more skills at very high levels and lots of magic items to supplement those skills.

[Spectre771]

HOW THE fudge AM I EVER GONNA BEAT UP A BALROG THEN

We use the same lvl bonus rules.. I understand that progression is slowed.. but dir spells actually gets 1 pr rank also after 30 ranks.. stated in rm2 spell law!

If you're going to use fudge to stop a Balrog, may I suggest extra marshmallow?  It will slow it down a lot more once it cools.

[markc]

 I have not read it in a while but are there not optional rules at the beginning of the various MERP books that talk about level bonus changes?
 Also you are not supposed to defeat a Balrog unless you are an Istari or a greater power like them, that is if I remember my Tolkien correctly.
MDC

[Malim]

HOW THE fudge AM I EVER GONNA BEAT UP A BALROG THEN

We use the same lvl bonus rules.. I understand that progression is slowed.. but dir spells actually gets 1 pr rank also after 30 ranks.. stated in rm2 spell law!

My post got deleted because i used a very bad word that no one here ever heard before, sorry!

[intothatdarkness]

I've never really had an issue with level bonuses cutting off, and I've taken a number of Arms characters past level 20 (including a bashkar, a duelist, and a cavalier...gotta love Companions). I think there should be diminishing returns...as you get better at a skill, the level of improvement you tend to see gets smaller and smaller...those "big leaps" become less and less common until you're really just fine-tuning your ability.

[markc]

Moderator Note:
 The ICE Rules of Conduct are very clear on offensive language in posts.
MDC

[Spectre771]

I've never really had an issue with level bonuses cutting off, and I've taken a number of Arms characters past level 20 (including a bashkar, a duelist, and a cavalier...gotta love Companions). I think there should be diminishing returns...as you get better at a skill, the level of improvement you tend to see gets smaller and smaller...those "big leaps" become less and less common until you're really just fine-tuning your ability.

I'm addicted to the Companions!   

Duelist and Cavalier are probably my favorite professions to play.  I have to really make an effort to select a different profession at PC creation.

As with any skill in real life, it becomes more and more difficult to improve just a little bit more; engine performance, race car top speed, Martial Arts...  It's that darn learning curve.

[yammahoper]

There was an optional rule for OB skills to have a progression of -25/+5/+4/+3/+2/+1.

Profession bonuses canbe +3(level 20), +2(level 21=40), +1(level 41-60) then +.5(lvl 61+).  There is a master table in Lords of Middle EarthVol I.

[markc]

Thanks, Yammahoper that is the table I was thinking of.
MDC

[Malim]

Exatly made so that the big elfs could beat up their balrogs

[Tommi]

"Big" elves managed to do that without extra bonuses. Fingolfin 135 lvl had OB of 565  (IIRC - if that is right I'm afraid of  my own sanity...). I recall that it was possible using normal rules: 270 ranks = 200, 135 lvl = 175, Stats were above 110 --> (a bit under) 100 from stats, Ringil +88  sword = 563. Add minor BGO +10 to skill... Me and my brother tested Black Reaver against Fingolfin (allowed breaking 150 rule) and Blackreaver lasted two rounds!

So even +3/lvl and +1/lvl over 20th level will give you really big bonuses if level is high enough.

[yammahoper]

In RMC is a talent: buy two ranks get a third free.

You could also add everyman and occupational skills to your game.  Six ranks a level adds up.