Topic: Maneuver to "touch" someone during combat / out of combat

[Dreven1]

Hello All!

Any cool ideas or house rulz on how to "touch" someone during combat for use with the +35 touch bonus for BAR or touch based spells? (Disruptions?)

We have a house rule that it is basically a medium maneuver adding in your QU/Ag stat bonus... any other nice rules??

Dreven

[Arioch]

From RMC Creatures & Treasures: to touch your target you must make a Qu/Ag Medium Moving Manuever (minus target DB), if you succeed, you've touched the target (in RMFRP/SS I would rather use a skill or either Martial Arts or Special Attacks cat bonus). Otherwise if you make an attack an score at least 1hp, you've touched the target.

[Fidoric]

In a combat situation, you could consider using brawling or martial arts and taking into account the defender's DB as he is certainly reluctant to be touched by someone.

Out of combat, it depends on the situation. If you are quietly speaking with someone, you can certainly touch him every time (surprise so +20 and no DB). In certain cultures where physical contact is shunned, maybe the 'speaking distance' will be greater and so touching someone could be more difficult.

[Dark Schneider]

Make an attack, if your result is not 0 you touch it, for touch you could add a bonus (as +20) but apply always 0 damage.
You can use any melee hand-to-hand attack you have, MA or brawling.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

In Combat
As mentioned above, a Medium maneuver (attacker using Ag/Qu bonuses averaged together; defender gaining normal DB). If the result on the maneuver column says 100 or higher, then you have touched the target and get the touching bonus on spells.

Alternatively....
You could use the same modifiers and use the MA Sweeps attack table, and look up the result on the proper AT column of the table. Any non-zero result equals a solid touch (but no damage is actually done on the table itself). I think that this is what DS was suggesting above. The MA Sweeps table is ideally suited due to when/where damage starts based upon the armor worn.

However, I would NOT use any melee skills with this as melee skills are all about damaging the foe, not just touching him. The focus is different and could possibly disrupt the spell depending upon its wording. (Note: some spells could work very well with attacks, working to add extra damage -- the point is that it depends on the spell itself).


Non-Combat Situations
This would depend upon the situation, but in most cases, you likely shouldn't even need a roll if the target is unaware that you are trying to touch him (i.e. if you did roll, you could add in bonuses for surprise, and approach from the rear to get those bonuses,  and so forth, putting your total adjustment close to 100 before even rolling. Most rolls would be just to see if target moved unexpectedly just before you attempted to touch him.

[Dreven1]

What about parrying? Or developing the attack?

Anyone ever tried to parry a medium level maneuver roll   

What types of house rules do you guys use if someone wants to then "dodge" or "parry" the incoming medium maneuver? (Simply do initiative, assign OB's, subtract DB's (including parry bonus), position modifiers, suprise, etc?)

If you dont use the MA or Brawling attack skill then what other ways might a caster develop a bonus to their touch maneuver? (maybe directed spell?)

[Arioch]

What about parrying? Or developing the attack?

Anyone ever tried to parry a medium level maneuver roll   

What types of house rules do you guys use if someone wants to then "dodge" or "parry" the incoming medium maneuver? (Simply do initiative, assign OB's, subtract DB's (including parry bonus), position modifiers, suprise, etc?)

Since target total DB is subtracted to the maneuver roll (see above description), parry or dodging will make target more difficult to touch (remember that "parrying" covers not only actual parries, but means that the character is assuming a "defensive stance", concentrating on defensive actions).

If you dont use the MA or Brawling attack skill then what other ways might a caster develop a bonus to their touch maneuver? (maybe directed spell?)

What version of RM are you using?

[twh]

Since target total DB is subtracted to the maneuver roll (see above description), parry or dodging will make target more difficult to touch (remember that "parrying" covers not only actual parries, but means that the character is assuming a "defensive stance", concentrating on defensive actions).

According to RMC parrying means you're using a weapon to block an attack; otherwise, you're just dodging.  Now if you're using a weapon to block someone's attempted touch, does that constitute an attack?  I don't think you can get away with saying you're half-parrying a touch attack and thus get two attack rolls in a round, but blocking someone's arm with your sword is gonna leave a mark.

[Dreven1]

If you dont use the MA or Brawling attack skill then what other ways might a caster develop a bonus to their touch maneuver? (maybe directed spell?)

What version of RM are you using?

I am using RMFRP/RMSS (However I do use Rulz from RM/RMC)

[Arioch]

Since target total DB is subtracted to the maneuver roll (see above description), parry or dodging will make target more difficult to touch (remember that "parrying" covers not only actual parries, but means that the character is assuming a "defensive stance", concentrating on defensive actions).

According to RMC parrying means you're using a weapon to block an attack; otherwise, you're just dodging.  Now if you're using a weapon to block someone's attempted touch, does that constitute an attack?  I don't think you can get away with saying you're half-parrying a touch attack and thus get two attack rolls in a round, but blocking someone's arm with your sword is gonna leave a mark.

From RMC Arms Law:

A combatant can increase their defensive bonus by allocating some or all of their Offensive Bonus (OB) to increase their DB. This is called parrying, although it can also be defined as fighting more defensively, or even dodging.

I am using RMFRP/RMSS (However I do use Rulz from RM/RMC)

Developing a "touch" skill under Directed Spells cat. could be a good idea: the category is based on Ag and AD, which reflects eye-hand coordination and has a low cost for pure users, which is good because they're the ones who'll need this skill...

[Dax]

Anyone ever tried to parry a medium level maneuver roll   

This was also my first thought:
If a spell user's hand glows in an unhealthy color, I (i.e. my PC - because I never met a spell user in real life, yet) would try to avoid contact.

• Do I have a weapon ready ? Fine, beat the arm out of the way is the best parry.
• Without a weapon, I would try to catch the arm and hold it away from my body (but if this count as touch, I need a "true" dodge).

This should be solved as a conflict action with rolls on both side (if the defender is aware of the attacker, of course).

[twh]

From RMC Arms Law:

A combatant can increase their defensive bonus by allocating some or all of their Offensive Bonus (OB) to increase their DB. This is called parrying, although it can also be defined as fighting more defensively, or even dodging.

I was thinking of this part (AL pp 19-20):
UNARMED COMBAT
Engaging in combat without weapons falls under ?unarmed? combat. Since attempting to stop a weapon with your body is essentially the same as being struck, unarmed combatants have limits to how they can parry.  To reflect this difficulty, any OB used to parry a weapon is cut in half. (So 50 points of unarmed OB used to parry a weapon would only grant 25 points of DB.). This does not apply against other unarmed attackers.
...
A combatant may ?parry? with suitable terrain features (e.g. dodge around a tree, duck under a large branch, or step behind a door). The GM is the final judge as to the appropriateness of such ?terrain parrying? situations.

The first part was mainly what I was thinking of.  I would rule that the attacker's hand is a weapon rather than considering him unarmed because the defender is having to avoid the hand, like he would have to avoid a physical weapon in that hand.  The last paragraph, though, muddies it somewhat; the defender could use obstacles to "parry."  Still sounds like a dodge to me, but that's what the book says.

[Dreven1]

And this brings up a great question...

So, if someone parries or dodges (shoves in the way) their Broadsword to block/parry/dodge someone?s ?glowy? hand of death coming at them... what DAMAGE will the person issuing the attack take??

There has to be some cuts or damage they take just from being blocked by such a weapon.... I can understand no damage from a MA block or even just using a shield? but a bladed or spiked weapon?

I just can?t see a Magician attacking a Warrior/ Fighter/ Barbarian/ Rogue/ Thief/ Ranger/ Paladin with his "glowy? hand of death and them parry/dodge/blocks the attack with their double-bladed steel weapon and the Magician not taking damage...

Help!! can anyone post their simple yet effective way to resolve this? In like a single paragraph of stats and rulz?

thanks!!!
Drev

[Fornitus]

 We just use martial arts charts with whatever skill the caster has in ANY form of unarmed combat with no damage given and anything other than a zero is a hit. If the caster misses, then I see if the Parry was the deciding factor in the miss. If so, the caster recives an attack on the apropriate weapon chart that combines the total amount of parry plus the total of the casters missed attack.

 Example: Sorcerer has a +15  in brawling and rolls an 80. total attack is 95.
               The target is AT 12 with no shield (2-H sword) and a parry of 50.
               45 misses on both charts, so...
               Caster gets a 2-H Sword atack at (95 + 50) 145.
               Being nice, the caster has a ring +20 and QU of +15.
               New total 110 on our AT 2 Sorcerer. 27D Slash.
               I also just run the crit as stated. Jumping around like that, your arm
               isint the only thing that can get hit.

 See what happens if you just stick your hand into a blender?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

1) RMC skill -- if you really want to develop a skill for touch attack spells in RMC, then Spell Mastery would be the skill to use as that was part of the original intention of the skill.

2) Parrying - parrying does not have to mean "blocking with the sword", and even "blocking with a sword" does not have to mean contact against the incoming attack.

Parrying is essentially fighting more defensively. Little dodges, little blocks and evasions and feints, etc.. all combining to increase a character's defensive capabilities by lowering their offensive capabilities. A Dodge maneuver would be something completely different as it is a full round action that precludes taking any offensive action.

Trying to by what RMC Arms Law says exactly is going to be problematic at times. One of the problems with the older RM Arms Law is that it sometimes was unclear and contradicted itself and I am afraid that we may not have fully cleared everything up (that section about terrain parrying being a prime example).

As for parrying a touch attack, you can still parry without actually hitting/touching the attacker as just threatening their exposed limb with an edge is likely to make them more wary of trying to touch you. If you are trying to touch somebody and they jab a sharp pointy thing (like a dagger) at you, you will instinctively draw your arm back. Parry does not have to mean contact, only disruption of attack.

RMC Arms Law says that an unarmed character attempting to parry an armed character only gets to apply half of the OB that they use in parrying to DB in normal circumstances (i.e. wearing bracers would negate this halving effect).  You could always apply the same in reverse to somebody attempting to parry an unarmed attack (i.e. 25 points of parrying gives 50 points of DB against the attack).

[twh]

RMC Arms Law says that an unarmed character attempting to parry an armed character only gets to apply half of the OB that they use in parrying to DB in normal circumstances (i.e. wearing bracers would negate this halving effect).  You could always apply the same in reverse to somebody attempting to parry an unarmed attack (i.e. 25 points of parrying gives 50 points of DB against the attack).

I like that idea, it makes perfect sense.  Trying to "just touch" the guy with the 2H sword isn't as simple as one might initially think.

[twh]

Following up on my previous post, would such a rule apply for a normal fight between armed and unarmed foes?  If I'm using a sword, do I get 200% parry versus an unarmed opponent using MA Strikes?  That sorta makes sense, but would it be unbalancing?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

against a martial artist (whose training would likely involve dealing with armed foes -- especially in a fantasy setting), I would say no. Against a normal unarmed person without martial arts training  I would say yes.

[yammahoper]

Following up on my previous post, would such a rule apply for a normal fight between armed and unarmed foes?  If I'm using a sword, do I get 200% parry versus an unarmed opponent using MA Strikes?  That sorta makes sense, but would it be unbalancing?

In first edition RM, an unarmed attacker, be he a brawler or a martial artist, could not parry against an armed foe.  Thus the skill adrenal defense.

I still use the rule.  Have a high adrenal defense, or arm yourself.  If unarmed martial artist were able to rule a battle field, then we never would have bothered with inventing weapons and armor.

lynn

[twh]

against a martial artist (whose training would likely involve dealing with armed foes -- especially in a fantasy setting), I would say no. Against a normal unarmed person without martial arts training  I would say yes.

Interesting point, but would such training include "dodge a weapon, don't parry it?"