Topic: Psi chapter

[gonther]

I really like those Psi rules. But I don't understand some of the examples and explanations.

One issue is the Nature of Psi at the beginning of the chapter. You have three agencies which interact: mind, brain, and outside world. If the mind (or consciousness) influences both, the physical brain and the outside world - then I would guess that the mind brings forth the effects of Psi. Therefore, I was very surprised that certain areas of the brain are made responsible for Psi powers.
If you assume that mind can influence matter, the brain can be treated just like every other physical object. Then you don?t need any of the quantum physics assumptions, because quantum physics can only explain interactions between matter and other matter. When the elusive mind influences matter, you don?t need any explanation at all. No one knows what mind is, so we can just assume that it does what it does.
But why not get rid of the difficult philosophy of mind and just talk about the brain? The brain can interact with the rest of the body and the outside world not only by sensory perception and motor acts, but also by the mechanism of coupled quantums. There are such things as coupled quantums and there are are lot of quantum couples of which one is in the outside world and one is in the brain. This is a reasonable explanation for Psi effects in the physical world which sounds scientific enough for a science fiction setting.

Another thing I found confusing are the examples on the next page.
John has several options and the DP costs for those options are computed and compared. When I first read it, I got the impression that John gets the same talents for different amounts of DP. But he gets very different things, so I think it?s not justified to directly compare the costs and talk about him saving 20 DPs, etc.
The first example is unrealistic, because he has already chosen to take the Adept profession. Therefore, he doesn?t have to pay for all three talents. Maybe it would be better to show in the first example what the costs would be if he took a different profession.
In the second and third example, he not only saves DPs but also gets different numbers of Active Psionic Field Talents. In the second example, he got three psionic fields with two active tiers in the first field for a total cost of 45 DPs. In the last example, he not only spends 15 DPs less, but he also gets one active tier less. So, nothing saved compared to the second example. The example suggests that he saves more.

Another, more general problem with the examples: They already talk about Active Psionic Fields before the concept of active fields is introduced (in the next paragraph). Maybe the examples should appear a little later.

Well, I know how the examples were meant ? but only after reading them several times. At first read, having no examples at all would have been less confusing.

If I appear to be hypercritical, please tell me so. Maybe it?s just because I?m no native speaker that I have trouble understanding some things.

[gonther]

p 290, after the table

Thus a character with Active Psionic Field (Telepathy) at Tier 3 and 3 skill ranks in the Empathy Psi Discipline
could activate the Empathy Discipline at Tier 2 in duration and be able to sense emotions for 6 rounds (2 rounds per
rank x 3 ranks). Alternatively the character could activate the discipline at Tier 2 for duration and be able to sense
emotions for 15 rounds (5 rounds per rank x 3 ranks).
Each parameter of a Psi Discipline may be set at a desired Tier independently of the others.

- "Tier 2 in duration" should read "Tier 2 for duration" to harmonize with the use of "for" in all other examples.
- The second "Tier 2 for duration" should probably read "Tier 3 for duration"
- The last sentence explains the rule whose knowledge is presumed in the preceding example. I didn't understand what "for duration" meant until I read the rest of the paragraph.


p 301, Precognitive Maneuvering

The bonus may not be applied to any skill from the Combat category, any skill from the Concentration skill, any Resistance skill, Armor or Endurance.

Suggestion:
"The bonus may not be applied to any Combat, Concentration or Resistance skill, Armor or Endurance."


p 302, Cryokinesis

[...] twenty degrees below the ambient temperature (or to ?273.16 degrees Celsius whichever is higher).

1) Some people (small children  ) may not intuitively understand (a) which of two negative values is higher, or (b) where the given value comes from.
2) Some fault-finder may point out that, albeit the value of -273.16 is indeed cited very often, absolute zero really is -273.15 degrees Celsius.

Maybe the sentence can be changed to something like
"[...] twenty degrees below the ambient temperature (to a minimum of ?273.15 degrees Celsius or absolute zero)."

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

I really like those Psi rules. But I don't understand some of the examples and explanations.

One issue is the Nature of Psi at the beginning of the chapter. You have three agencies which interact: mind, brain, and outside world. If the mind (or consciousness) influences both, the physical brain and the outside world - then I would guess that the mind brings forth the effects of Psi. Therefore, I was very surprised that certain areas of the brain are made responsible for Psi powers.
If you assume that mind can influence matter, the brain can be treated just like every other physical object. Then you don?t need any of the quantum physics assumptions, because quantum physics can only explain interactions between matter and other matter. When the elusive mind influences matter, you don?t need any explanation at all. No one knows what mind is, so we can just assume that it does what it does.
But why not get rid of the difficult philosophy of mind and just talk about the brain? The brain can interact with the rest of the body and the outside world not only by sensory perception and motor acts, but also by the mechanism of coupled quantums. There are such things as coupled quantums and there are are lot of quantum couples of which one is in the outside world and one is in the brain. This is a reasonable explanation for Psi effects in the physical world which sounds scientific enough for a science fiction setting.

Nope. If the people who came up with the combined quantum/consciousness models could have avoided dragging in the philosophy of mind, they would have. Without going into vast detail, it's what makes these theories "work" (for some definition of "work"), and given that I further brutalise their theories to explain away some much more exotic and incredible powers, such handwaving becomes necessary. By retaining the connection to the brain, I retain some notional credibility and can trivially achieve the game mechanics effect of requiring all latent abilities to be purchased at first level.

Another thing I found confusing are the examples on the next page.
John has several options and the DP costs for those options are computed and compared. When I first read it, I got the impression that John gets the same talents for different amounts of DP. But he gets very different things, so I think it?s not justified to directly compare the costs and talk about him saving 20 DPs, etc.

What he's after is access to multiple Tiers, which means Latent Psionic Fields Talents. The examples demonstrate that by going the Adept route, he can get those latent talents more cheaply and, as a bonus, access to active field talent(s) as well.

The first example is unrealistic, because he has already chosen to take the Adept profession. Therefore, he doesn?t have to pay for all three talents.

I'm assuming that you are referring to:
"Example: John is designing a new character, which will not be a member of the Adept profession at 1st level. He wants the character to have the psychic potential for the Electrokinetic, Psychokinetic and Telepathic Fields. This will cost his character 50 DPs (5 DPs for Latent Psionic (Electrokinesis), 15 DPs for Latent Psionic (Psychokinetic) and 30 DPs for Latent Psionic (Telepathy)). His character won?t have many DPs left for skills."

No, he hasn't. So yes, he does.

Maybe it would be better to show in the first example what the costs would be if he took a different profession.

That's what does happen in the first example.

In the second and third example, he not only saves DPs but also gets different numbers of Active Psionic Field Talents. In the second example, he got three psionic fields with two active tiers in the first field for a total cost of 45 DPs. In the last example, he not only spends 15 DPs less, but he also gets one active tier less. So, nothing saved compared to the second example. The example suggests that he saves more.

In the context of getting three latent fields at first level, he does. The active Tiering is irrelevant

Another, more general problem with the examples: They already talk about Active Psionic Fields before the concept of active fields is introduced (in the next paragraph). Maybe the examples should appear a little later.

The concept is already introduced briefly in the section The Basics of Psionics, which precedes this section and has appeared in the Professions and Talents chapter.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

p 290, after the table

Thus a character with Active Psionic Field (Telepathy) at Tier 3 and 3 skill ranks in the Empathy Psi Discipline
could activate the Empathy Discipline at Tier 2 in duration and be able to sense emotions for 6 rounds (2 rounds per
rank x 3 ranks). Alternatively the character could activate the discipline at Tier 2 for duration and be able to sense
emotions for 15 rounds (5 rounds per rank x 3 ranks).
Each parameter of a Psi Discipline may be set at a desired Tier independently of the others.

- "Tier 2 in duration" should read "Tier 2 for duration" to harmonize with the use of "for" in all other examples.
- The second "Tier 2 for duration" should probably read "Tier 3 for duration"

Both altered.

- The last sentence explains the rule whose knowledge is presumed in the preceding example. I didn't understand what "for duration" meant until I read the rest of the paragraph.

I've put a preemptive note about independent setting earlier in the text, i.e.
"The exact effect of a psionic activation depends on two factors: the Tier chosen for each parameter (each may be set independently) and the number of skill ranks known by the character in the relevant Psi Discipline."

p 301, Precognitive Maneuvering

The bonus may not be applied to any skill from the Combat category, any skill from the Concentration skill, any Resistance skill, Armor or Endurance.

Suggestion:
"The bonus may not be applied to any Combat, Concentration or Resistance skill, Armor or Endurance."

actually Concentration skill should be Concentration category.

p 302, Cryokinesis

[...] twenty degrees below the ambient temperature (or to ?273.16 degrees Celsius whichever is higher).

1) Some people (small children  ) may not intuitively understand (a) which of two negative values is higher, or (b) where the given value comes from.
2) Some fault-finder may point out that, albeit the value of -273.16 is indeed cited very often, absolute zero really is -273.15 degrees Celsius.

Maybe the sentence can be changed to something like
"[...] twenty degrees below the ambient temperature (to a minimum of ?273.15 degrees Celsius or absolute zero)."

Both fixed.

[gonther]

Maybe it would be better to show in the first example what the costs would be if he took a different profession.

That's what does happen in the first example.

I am sorry to bother you with problems that don't exist.

Thanks for your answers.
It seems that some of the problems I had with the chapter stem from not reading thoroughly enough or not having read the previous chapters.
But maybe that will happen to some other readers, too...

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Maybe it would be better to show in the first example what the costs would be if he took a different profession.

That's what does happen in the first example.

I am sorry to bother you with problems that don't exist.

That's OK.

Thanks for your answers.
It seems that some of the problems I had with the chapter stem from not reading thoroughly enough or not having read the previous chapters.
But maybe that will happen to some other readers, too...

The Psi chapter has a lot of aspects being explained in a fairly compact presentation and many of them are interlinked, so it does not surprise me that it can be confusing, particularly for anyone who isn't a native speaker. I wouldn't dare try to read a French or German game in the original, my knowledge of both  languages is now too distant.

Best wishes,
Nicholas