Topic: Stats & Stat Bonuses

[gonther]

Hey there! Finally I've joined the HARP SF Beta group.

I first looked at the Stat Increase table, because this was one of the few things I changed in my HARP rulebook.
I don't think you want to change the tables, but I thought I should tell you about it. It's a rather mathematical issue, albeit of practical relevance.

You have two tables, each with a distribution that looks reasonable. But if you combine the two tables, you get a somewhat strange distribution.

I assume that most players are not really interested in stats. Stats don't play a major role in the game. Players are interested in stat bonuses. So, they want to know how much DPs they must spend to increase their bonus from, say 0 to 1, or from 10 to 11.
In the first case it's 5 DPs (to raise the stat from 46 to 51). In the second case 22 DPs must be spent (to raise the stat from 96 to 101). Let's have a look at the complete distribution:

New bonus		Cost
-17 - 0		2.5
1 - 8		5
9		6
10		11
11		22
12 - 15		10

Personally, I don't like the 22 DPs to reach a bonus of 11.
I get a much smoother distribution when I change the stat cost table slightly, so it reads

Stat Range		Cost
1 - 91		1
92 - 101		2
102-105		10

Now the cost per bonus point is:

New bonus		Cost
-17 - 0		2.5
1 - 9		5
10 - 15		10

That's why I changed the stat increase costs as outlined in the second table.
Btw, table 4.1 on page 28 needs some reformating. The vertical lines are in the wrong places.

[Mungo]

Hi,

Stats and costs to raise them was also one point I wanted to address.

I have spent quite some time tinkering with characters in the last few weeks and as a result it has become clear to me that in most cases its not worth it for a player to raise his stat above 91, but that it is worth it to raise it exactly to 91.

Why? Because below 91 return on investment is after 5 levels, after 91 its 10 or even 15 levels. And at least in my group we have never played one campagin so long that we raised the characters to such a high level. So the average player won't see the benefits of raising his stats above 91, so why should he do it?

The obvious answer should be: because its not only about DP, its about stat bonus as well. But to increase my bonus from +8 to +10 costs me 33 DP - more than enough to buy some talents that give me +10 or more in my favourite skills.

So bottomline is: I do not think the stat system is working very well for values above 91. And below 91 it is inviting to raise stats to exactly 91, thus leading at the end to quite uniform characters in terms of stats.

I don't know whether gonther's proposal is the solution, I also don't know whether this is a very big issue as you don't notice it (at least I don't) during a game session, just when leveling up or creating a character.

But if there is time for it and if its allowed (because of compatibility with HARP), I think stats are definitely an area that could be improved.

BR
Juergen

[allenrmaher]

The one option I would like to see introduced is the Fixed DP per level option... thus divorcing the DP from stats.  This allows players to play stats that make sense to the character without the the DP shuffle.  It makes the rolled character more appealing as well.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

The stats and stat bonuses won't be changing as they must remain consistent with HARP; the granting of fractional DPs for stats below 51 is a refinement of the existing rules set.

It is conceivable that a Fixed DP per level option may be added in.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Lord Damian]

Something i've been considering doing in my HARP fantasy game is to disallow the expenditure of DPs to raise stats, but letting EARNED fate points be spent on them.  but that would require a player to track which are earned and which he bought.  OTOH, i've also been toying with the idea of handing out Adventure Points as a reward.  the only hard and fast ideas i have that i'm trying to cover is basicly to allow the players narative ability (mine won't volunteer without some sort of mechanic).  So John, who's playing Schwartz the Swashbuckler is fighting against two guards on a balcony in an in.  John asks "is there a chandelier in reach?"  I, having cleverly neglected to put props on the CIELING, reply with "probably not, but you can spend an Adventure Point to narate it".  Maybe I'd allow a PC to use them to raise stats.   Hmmm.

Here's how i think i'd do the above AP advancement thing.  First, AP's get handed out for doing Adventurous and Heroic (note captials) actions, and VOLUNTEERING descriptives.  Now, when a character does something that earns an AP (dosn't have to be successful, btw, just adventurous and/or heroic), he puts a mark by the stat or stats used.  this is just a yes/no thing, it's not a count.

At the next level up procedure, the same pc can use any AP's left over to raise any stat or stats used, on a (tentative) 1 AP for 2 DP basis, with the same restriction of only allowing 20 Dp's worth of advancement (or 10 APs).  DP's can be used for anything else as usual, and i might even allow AP's to be used as well, on the same 1 AP for 2 DP basis.

This makes the players EARN those extra DP's, AND gives the GM a bit of control over stat advancement.

I'll post this in the HARP fantasy forum as well.

Lord Damian

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The stats and stat bonuses won't be changing as they must remain consistent with HARP; the granting of fractional DPs for stats below 51 is a refinement of the existing rules set.

Correct, the stats and stat bonuses must remain consistent with the core HARP rules. (Nick's fractional DPs may also end up getting used in an issue of the HARPer's Bazaar to introduce it into the fantasy side of the house.

It is conceivable that a Fixed DP per level option may be added in.

This would be an acceptable option.