Topic: Vehicle Combat - Pilot as Gunner

[Mungo]

Hi,

In the current descriptions the role of Pilot and Gunner is seperated, i.e. there is a pilot and a gunner.

But I think it is a likely scenario for fighter planes and spacecraft that they are the same person. What happens then in terms of rules? Does this person get any penalties to either his flying or gunnery action?

One idea would be that instead of his gunnery skill he must take his piloting skill, another that he must choose between flying and gunnery action. Or nothing happens...

BR
Juergen

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Mungo, where are you getting the idea that the role of the Pilot and the Gunner are separated?

I look at the profession description for Pilot, and one of the selections that I see as possible is "Natural Gunner". That doesn't seem separated to me (though the skills themselves are separated, and that I fully agree to).

Or are you referring to something else? I am not positive about what you are actually referring to here. Can you be more specific? Page references and such?

[Defendi]

I think he means as participants in a fight.  As in a person can either pilot or shoot a gun, but not both in the same round.  I didn't have time to read the combat rules yet, so I haven't commented. 

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

ahh.....

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Hi,

In the current descriptions the role of Pilot and Gunner is seperated, i.e. there is a pilot and a gunner.

But I think it is a likely scenario for fighter planes and spacecraft that they are the same person. What happens then in terms of rules? Does this person get any penalties to either his flying or gunnery action?

One idea would be that instead of his gunnery skill he must take his piloting skill, another that he must choose between flying and gunnery action. Or nothing happens...

BR
Juergen

You have to choose fly or shoot each round. Or get an AI to do one of the tasks.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[chk]

This is one of the (good) side effects of 2-second rounds; none of the "I'm doing 47 things this round" actions for the SysOp to keep track of. HARP has the same advantage.

[Mungo]

Hi,

Yes, that's what I meant - within a combat round.

And after thinking about it, it really makes sense that the pilot has to choose whether he is piloting in a round or shooting. A fighter with 2 crew must be able to do more than a fighter with pilot only.

BR
Juergen

[Mungo]

Hi,

If the pilot decides to shoot: does the Maneuverability Modifier still apply?

Also on p166 it is written that the Pilot must make a Driving/Piloting Maneuver. If he can choose, I suggest to change this in "can" and describe what happens if he does something else.

BR
Juergen

[rad42]

Hi,

Yes, that's what I meant - within a combat round.

And after thinking about it, it really makes sense that the pilot has to choose whether he is piloting in a round or shooting. A fighter with 2 crew must be able to do more than a fighter with pilot only.

BR
Juergen

I can agree with that from a gaming perspective, but I still have problems with that concept.
First, flying and shooting simultaneously is the essence of dogfighting.  The pilot maneuvers to get a shot at the enemy plane (or to avoid it ), and takes that shot the instant it becomes available.  He doesn't stop flying the fighter to take the shot.  The firing controls are built into the stick.  If we were talking about deploying a payload (bomb or torpedo or something), that would probably require flying straight and level to get any accuracy.  But for guns I just don't see it.

The other problem I have with it genre specific.  The lone fighter jock, strapped into his starfighter, solo, is iconic in SF.  I find it very unsatisfying to have a system where that fighter jock can't fly and shoot at the same time...mixing it up with the bad guys. 

Maybe, for a pilot thats guilty of firing while flying , just use the OB from his OB/DB split instead of gunnery skill.  How's that sound?

Thanks

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

I can agree with that from a gaming perspective, but I still have problems with that concept.
First, flying and shooting simultaneously is the essence of dogfighting.  The pilot maneuvers to get a shot at the enemy plane (or to avoid it ), and takes that shot the instant it becomes available.  He doesn't stop flying the fighter to take the shot.  The firing controls are built into the stick.  If we were talking about deploying a payload (bomb or torpedo or something), that would probably require flying straight and level to get any accuracy.  But for guns I just don't see it.

The other problem I have with it genre specific.  The lone fighter jock, strapped into his starfighter, solo, is iconic in SF.  I find it very unsatisfying to have a system where that fighter jock can't fly and shoot at the same time...mixing it up with the bad guys. 

Maybe, for a pilot thats guilty of firing while flying , just use the OB from his OB/DB split instead of gunnery skill.  How's that sound?

Thanks

It would have to be a SysOp's Choice rather than core. I think I would also want the Driving/Piloting maneuver to be made at a penalty of at least -20. The bonus/penalty would then form the pilot's OB.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Possible suggestion -- single pilot/gunner be limited to shooting only directly in front of him (i.e. he is basically aiming his ship at the target to make an attack -- weapons are fixed front facing positions).

This is also part of the staple of solo fighter pilots. As rad42 pointed, out, flying does not stop to fire, it is done as a simultaneous action. However, anything that DOES affect flying will end up affecting any shots made as well, IMO.

Perhaps set it up so that there is a single skill involved for this type fighting. Especially since your flying skill is also gonna end up affecting your DB in such tiny vessels as well (i.e. dodging and making it harder for foe to line up on you).

Perhaps call the skill "Dogfighting" and making it apply as required. It would be different than general piloting (as that does not involve the normal dogfighting skills).

As I have said before, one thing we are attempting to accomplish is preventing skill bloat, but if the situation really really calls for it, then adding a new skill should be considered.

[rad42]

Possible suggestion -- single pilot/gunner be limited to shooting only directly in front of him (i.e. he is basically aiming his ship at the target to make an attack -- weapons are fixed front facing positions).

This is also part of the staple of solo fighter pilots. As rad42 pointed, out, flying does not stop to fire, it is done as a simultaneous action. However, anything that DOES affect flying will end up affecting any shots made as well, IMO.

Perhaps set it up so that there is a single skill involved for this type fighting. Especially since your flying skill is also gonna end up affecting your DB in such tiny vessels as well (i.e. dodging and making it harder for foe to line up on you).

Perhaps call the skill "Dogfighting" and making it apply as required. It would be different than general piloting (as that does not involve the normal dogfighting skills).

As I have said before, one thing we are attempting to accomplish is preventing skill bloat, but if the situation really really calls for it, then adding a new skill should be considered.

I agree with most of that, particularly with regard to fixed forward weaponry.  A pilot would not be able to fly his ship, and operate a weapon facing other than forward, or on a turret, at the same time.  I don't think a dogfighting skill is called for here.  Dogfighting would be part of the skill CS&M Combat Piloting when that skill is taken for an appropriate ship (ie, starfighter).  I think that Nicholas' idea of an added penalty (-20) to the maneuver roll if a pilot is also gunner that round should be adequate...if an added penalty is thought to be needed.  If that pilot isn't going to take a shot that round then he doesn't incur the penalty...but he can't shoot either.

Actually, I would rather that the OB portion of the OB/DB split be applied to any pilot directed weapon fire, in place of the gunnery bonus.  This would force a pilot to go all OB on certain rounds to get the best shot possible, at the expense of his DB of course.

But, on reflection, Nicholas' idea would tend to separate the men from the boys...at least on solo fighters.  Using his suggestion, only the really skilled pilots could manage to consistantly get good enough results from the maneuver roll to make a good show of themselves dogfighting.  Historically, it would make sense.  A fighter pilot with five confirmed kills is called an ace.  Five doesn't seem like a very large number of kills for such a appellation as ace (easy for me to say ), but if many pilots had five kills it wouldn't mean much.  You may need ten or more to make ace. 

Either way, its not an easy task, to fly and shoot simultaneously.  But, history shows it is possible.  There should be a way to do so in HARP-SF.

My .02

[wachinayn]

I support the idea of a separate dogfighting skill.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

And I support Nick's decision...   

I was just offering up a different opinion. The final decision here will be Nick's, and then I will take it from there, but still with the intention of working with what Nick gives me.

[lazarus]

I am reminded of scenes from the new Battlestar Galactica (also, the old one), where the Viper pilots and Cylon raiders both essentially just spray their guns when they might possibly have a target, and just concentrate on the flying.

That is, I feel that it should be an OB penalty primarily, though rereading Nick's proposal, that actually has that effect (personally, I'd just slap the -20 on the OB itself rather than the Bonus Check).

Laz

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

I'm not keen on a separate Dogfighting skill because it confuses the issue with Combat Driving/Piloting, and puts a potentially optional skill into the Skills chapter. I like to localise the options and keep them few in number as they just make it harder to explain the core rules otherwise. Putting the penalty on the Driving/Piloting maneuver makes it harder for pilots to pull this off, which is as it should be.

Herewith the option text as it may be a little while yet before Tim finishes his current layout pass on his copy of the manuscript and is ready to do more amendments.

SysOp?s Choice: Pilot as Gunner
In some settings, the single-person starfighter is an iconic part of the milieu. By HARP SF rules, a character can only perform one action in a round (turn), which makes life difficult for those in single-person craft as they must choose to concentrate on flying or gunnery in any given round (or get an AI to take over one task each round). This option enables pilots to act as both pilots and gunners simultaneously. Pilots can choose to fly offensively, fly defensively or fly while shooting. If they choose to fly while shooting, they must decide how to split any bonus/penalty between an attack and defensive maneuvering, e.g. 50/50, 75/25, etc. They make their Driving/Piloting maneuver at the Hard (-20) difficulty degree and look up the result on the Bonus column. Any proportion of the bonus/penalty declared for DB is applied as in defensive piloting; the rest of the bonus/penalty is then used instead of a Gunnery skill when making the attack. Note that this option cannot be used to fire missiles or torpedoes as they require the targeter?s undivided attention.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[markc]

 Now that it is a rule you can also put in a new talent to reduce the penalty.

MDC

[Thos]

I like that, Nick. That works just fine for me.

[Mungo]

I like this as well.

BR
Juergen

[rad42]

I can get on board with this option as well.  I just have one little quibble.  The text for the SysOps choice should make clear that the Hard (-20) modifier is addition to the other modifiers to the maneuver roll that apply that round (active sensors, vehicle acceleration, asteroids and such).  As it is now, it could be read to imply that the -20 is the only modifier to consider when using this option. 

Other than that small point, I like this solution.

Thanks