Author Topic: Clerics in Middle Earth  (Read 2428 times)

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Offline Ginger McMurray

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Clerics in Middle Earth
« on: November 14, 2019, 03:20:59 PM »
I know this isn't a strictly RM2 question, but there isn't a Middle Earth section anywhere I can find and I'm using RM2 to run a Middle Earth campaign.

How would you handle clerics in Middle Earth? It doesn't have gods per se. Middle Earth Role Playing (MERP) has Animists only, but I'd like to provide more options if possible.
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Offline Thot

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2019, 09:55:30 PM »
In Tolkien's world, there don't seem to be any clerics or cults. Everybody sort of knows the "gods", but formal worship doesn't seem to be happening, neither in the Shire, nor in Rohan, nor in Gondor, and certainly not with the elves as far as we can see. In fact, magic as RoleMaster has it doesn't seem a good fit for an Arda that is close to Tolkien's vision. Remember that Gandalf, a great wizard, threw burning fir cones at his enemies as an "attack spell" and otherwise used a sword.  The greatest healer on Middle Earth, Elrond, basically had to wait for Frodo to recover from a near-mortal wound instead of casting a spell to patch him up in an instant.

But to be honest, where would be the fun with that? So I'd suggest to stay not as close to Tolkien there and make up some stuff yourself. Clerics could therefore be from cults for the individual Valar much like any henotheistic cult you know from other fantasy, though probably more so in Gondor or Dorwinion than, say, in Eriador, where population desnity at the time of the War of the Ring is extremely low (if you play in that era). Or you could take he route of a monotheistic cult of Alar Iluvatar with different "orders" that focus on certain aspects of the one true god. Either way, I would probably make these cults not as politically influental as religions have been in Earth history - they'd stay in the background and just do their duty to the gods and their king, hence nobody mentions them in the books. I'd also put some restraints on resurrection and healing magic, like "healing magic only works if a week (or even a month) has passed since the injury was caused" and "resurrection requires lengthy rituals that last a week" or something like this, which would explain why there was usually no time to do this in the books.

I'd also severely limit the amount of power points available to anyone. No power point multipliers, no magic items that allow additional castings, maybe even change power point regeneration from the default to "once per month".



 

Offline netbat

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2019, 06:19:09 AM »
There are a couple of good write-ups online that address limitations on RM magic for ME. Just try a couple variations of ME and RM in your search. One of the better ones is at https://sites.google.com/site/ambarquenta/home/the-offical-games/rolemaster
The Guild Companion also has a few articles that might be useful as do the OtherMinds/OtherHands magazines.
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Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2019, 09:56:55 AM »
Thanks! I'll check it out.

I may end up using the Tolien setting as closely as possible but changing it rather than changing RM's system. For example, placing hard limitations on healing makes it almost impossible to travel the world. A single critical hit from an orc could sideline a character for a week or more. Heaven forbid you're in the wilderness when that happens and you end up dead.

I found the MERP rules and there's even a recommendation in there for pricing on lifegiving effects. I'll dig deeper into those.
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Offline Aspire2Hope

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2019, 02:23:55 PM »
Magic and Mysticism in Middle Earth  - always a tricky topic.  You are skirting an area where fidelity to the written works is almost impossible to replicate in a manner that reflects a popular view of Middle Earth. You can homebrew RM2 (or any system for that matter) restricting access or you can open it all up and let it run wild.

My take is that Eru is the source of everything but he released the "magic" to the Valar and the Maia. So although using magic might be risky or even dangerous it is possible. Then as a result, "channelling" from Maia is also possible.  The Nazgul are almost certainly "priests" of Sauron. The "common man" would have had their own spiritual connections drawing on localised Maia powers (slightly impractical for an adventurer to have their boon only work within a small geographical boundary). Should you wish you could create a very believable version of magic/mystic use in Middle Earth using RM2. On the flip-side, your players won't notice any of that background work and may spend most of the time complaining that you won't let them use certain spells or lists.

Running games from MERP material and from the basic system up through RM, I have had lots of players who are used to a "brakes off" style to magic lists from various GMs. This makes it tricky when trying to pare the magic back to a lower level similar to the books. My response has been to roll with it within the system so long as it doesn't unbalance the story. I also make sure that as the level goes up, then the interest in these powerful figures increases if they keep on using high level spells.

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2019, 06:24:34 PM »
Well, I think you can get closer to authentic Middle-Earth simply by keeping Mentalism and ditching Channeling if pruning to two realms. Only the "Morgoth element" really seems like consistent Channeling for dark magic and that may be as well represented with Evil Essence, as it a pervasive corruption of the world. Any Channeling lists really desired can be moved to one of the other realms.

The idea that Middle-Earth is a very low magic setting is based largely on the Hobbit and LotR, though there is some powerful stuff there, too, if a bit more subtle most of the time than D&D magic. But that is a view from the perspective of a people without magic of their own, at a time when magic is on its way out and less common even than earlier in the Third Age. The First and Second Ages would have had a lot more powerful magic-wielders around. Gandalf appears weaker than he is because until he returns as Gandalf the White (not from some spell, but direct divine intervention), he is bound by restrictions on his use of power to avoid his corruption. Having been found worthy and freed to use his abilities, he freezes some pretty mighty folk in place, fires off some kind of laser blast type attack, and casts buffs on armies. Sauron literally coordinates a huge army and puts the fight into a large part of it, controls his own private volcano, and manages to crack the sanity of Denethor, a strong-willed man with Mentalism type abilities in his own right. Even in this twilight of the elder days, with Elves and magic departing, there is still quite a bit of wonder, though it keeps its head down with Sauron active. Just going back to when Sauron isn't around would justify more open magic use, but only the dark powers seek to extend their influence by channeling their power into servants.

Magicians aren't really that bad a fit, once you consider the off-screen battles between Gandalf and the Ringwraiths or Gandalf and the Balrog. Those clearly involved unleashing some flash and bang spells.

Middle-Earth isn't a place you should expect a spell-slinger in every party of adventurers or every little village, but they don't have to be super-rare, either. The earlier you go, the more powerful the magic and those wielding it. Nobody is throwing up a mountain range just to hinder migration in the Third Age. But even as late as LotR, magic was used to raise a river as a weapon against powerful undead, shield the realm of Lorien, and put on spectacular fireworks shows that would wow us today. Saruman appears to be able to use birds as spies from hundreds of miles away.

I would say that less-flashy magical professions should be more common than the showier ones, and semis more common than pure casters, but I certainly wouldn't forbid the playing of Magicians or Illusionist if someone wanted to play one. There's justification in the texts, if you want it. I'd switch Ranger to Mentalism and if I kept Animist, move it to Essence. Cleric and Paladin don't really fit.

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Offline Aspire2Hope

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2019, 04:13:26 AM »
Well, I think you can get closer to authentic Middle-Earth simply by keeping Mentalism and ditching Channeling if pruning to two realms. Only the "Morgoth element" really seems like consistent Channeling for dark magic and that may be as well represented with Evil Essence, as it a pervasive corruption of the world. Any Channeling lists really desired can be moved to one of the other realms.

The idea that Middle-Earth is a very low magic setting is based largely on the Hobbit and LotR, though there is some powerful stuff there, too, if a bit more subtle most of the time than D&D magic. But that is a view from the perspective of a people without magic of their own, at a time when magic is on its way out and less common even than earlier in the Third Age. The First and Second Ages would have had a lot more powerful magic-wielders around. Gandalf appears weaker than he is because until he returns as Gandalf the White (not from some spell, but direct divine intervention), he is bound by restrictions on his use of power to avoid his corruption. Having been found worthy and freed to use his abilities, he freezes some pretty mighty folk in place, fires off some kind of laser blast type attack, and casts buffs on armies. Sauron literally coordinates a huge army and puts the fight into a large part of it, controls his own private volcano, and manages to crack the sanity of Denethor, a strong-willed man with Mentalism type abilities in his own right. Even in this twilight of the elder days, with Elves and magic departing, there is still quite a bit of wonder, though it keeps its head down with Sauron active. Just going back to when Sauron isn't around would justify more open magic use, but only the dark powers seek to extend their influence by channeling their power into servants.

Magicians aren't really that bad a fit, once you consider the off-screen battles between Gandalf and the Ringwraiths or Gandalf and the Balrog. Those clearly involved unleashing some flash and bang spells.

Middle-Earth isn't a place you should expect a spell-slinger in every party of adventurers or every little village, but they don't have to be super-rare, either. The earlier you go, the more powerful the magic and those wielding it. Nobody is throwing up a mountain range just to hinder migration in the Third Age. But even as late as LotR, magic was used to raise a river as a weapon against powerful undead, shield the realm of Lorien, and put on spectacular fireworks shows that would wow us today. Saruman appears to be able to use birds as spies from hundreds of miles away.

I would say that less-flashy magical professions should be more common than the showier ones, and semis more common than pure casters, but I certainly wouldn't forbid the playing of Magicians or Illusionist if someone wanted to play one. There's justification in the texts, if you want it. I'd switch Ranger to Mentalism and if I kept Animist, move it to Essence. Cleric and Paladin don't really fit.

I agree with you on mages, they aren't ruled out of the ME canon. However, Gandalf's and his quieter Istari Brethren teach us that only those bent on selfish plans would unleash great magics unless at the direst need. However, Balrog, Sauron and Istari are all Maia and so have the power to shape the Song, albeit in a lesser way to the Valar. So what we really need is an example of a created race with the power to shape the song or at least to draw on it independently. Man never seemed to be able to do so although I would defer to any scholars of Numenor who could supply a reference. Dwarves might because their creation is outside the song but then again perhaps the "magic" they draw is from Aule. Elves, on the other hand, might be able to directly, or at least the Noldo who went to Valinor and sang the song.

I guess what I'm saying is that given my time to shape the game world again, and with the experience, I would probably rewrite the magic background and application of the rules, but keep the basic spell structure of RM. There really is no reason for a channeller not to hurl a fireball in ME. It is just a question of where the power comes from and how reliable it is.

Offline netbat

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2019, 10:21:11 AM »
The biggest paradigm difference in ME isn't that it lacks high magic, it is that there really would not be much of the "adventuring" mage mindset. If you live in a world where there aren't that many folks who can use magic, the way to power isn't by learning flashy kill spells like fireball and shock bolt. If you go that route in war or the open, you quickly become a target, run out of pp, and are killed by the guy with a rock. Flashy magic lets everyone know you are there and draws attention. That is why the power shown in the books is that of encouraging or sapping the will of huge numbers of people. I would imagine the good spell casters would focus on protection, misdirection, and courage enhancing spells applicable to large numbers rather than wasting their time on making themselves the best dungeon crawler in the world. Similarly, bad guys would focus on fear, control, and espionage spells. neither of these mindsets is what we are used to as players, so it makes playing in such a world difficult(but if you want to, it can make for a really fun campaign as long as the players agree to forgo the attack spells and focus on the big picture.)
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Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2019, 10:51:51 AM »
I'm thinking of upping the magic level in general from standard Middle Earth. For example, some of the MERP setting books mention religions based around Valar. That would be a good hook for clerics. I'd let the players know that clerics are rare and animists (aka druids in "D&D speak" are more familiar sights. There are also universities of magic in some of the larger cities, like Minas Ithil.

That would allow using broad strokes of the setting but still keeping the game feel familiar, which is useful when bringing players used to 5th edition D&D over to a system as seemingly* complex as Rolemaster.

It seems, at least based on setting books, that magic use is more common in the middle Third Age (1640-ish) than it in in the time of LotR and The Hobbit (3000+).

* I use the word seemingly because it's not vastly more complicated. The biggest difference is in basic combat, thanks to attack and crit charts. A lot of people seem to be allergic to cross referencing, even if it's just a matter of running a finger along a page, or using the straight edge of another sheet of paper to go down a column  until you hit the row you want.

Magic is also more complex than "I know spells and I stick them in my slots," but it gives a ton more options to a standard character, so it's a very good trade off IMO.
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Offline Thot

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2019, 11:12:06 AM »
It seems, at least based on setting books, that magic use is more common in the middle Third Age (1640-ish) than it in in the time of LotR and The Hobbit (3000+).
[...]

This does absolutely make sense. If you study the annexes of the LotR books, you'll find that the War Of The Ring takes place in an almost postapocalyptic world - large populations have been wiped off the face of Arda by plagues and wars and other disasters, presumeably caused by Sauron in preparation for his eventual return.

Offline Aspire2Hope

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2019, 11:15:25 AM »
I'm thinking of upping the magic level in general from standard Middle Earth. For example, some of the MERP setting books mention religions based around Valar. That would be a good hook for clerics. I'd let the players know that clerics are rare and animists (aka druids in "D&D speak" are more familiar sights. There are also universities of magic in some of the larger cities, like Minas Ithil.

That would allow using broad strokes of the setting but still keeping the game feel familiar, which is useful when bringing players used to 5th edition D&D over to a system as seemingly* complex as Rolemaster.

It seems, at least based on setting books, that magic use is more common in the middle Third Age (1640-ish) than it in in the time of LotR and The Hobbit (3000+).

* I use the word seemingly because it's not vastly more complicated. The biggest difference is in basic combat, thanks to attack and crit charts. A lot of people seem to be allergic to cross referencing, even if it's just a matter of running a finger along a page, or using the straight edge of another sheet of paper to go down a column  until you hit the row you want.

Magic is also more complex than "I know spells and I stick them in my slots," but it gives a ton more options to a standard character, so it's a very good trade off IMO.

Yep if you've got D&D experience coming over then you will need to play fast and loose and up the magic level. The players will want familiar classes to work from and they will get that the cleric will be worshipping one of the Valar or Maia to get their power.

Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2019, 04:56:29 PM »
This does absolutely make sense. If you study the annexes of the LotR books, you'll find that the War Of The Ring takes place in an almost postapocalyptic world - large populations have been wiped off the face of Arda by plagues and wars and other disasters, presumeably caused by Sauron in preparation for his eventual return.

Truth. In 1640 Gondor/Minas Ithil, where we'll start, has just been ravaged by a plague.
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Offline Aspire2Hope

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2019, 02:02:38 AM »
Ginger as most of the old ICE stuff is set then use the modules as guidance. I have tended to make things fairly low key by not leaving tons of magical items to be used by all and sundry which keeps the magic users down to a few powerful spells per tactical session. It also limits the fighters because they are less likely to be carrying a +20 Holy sword with them (although some of my fellow GMs in the past have been a bit over-generous on that front). I currently have to priestly characters in a game (played with other GMs arrived with lists I wouldn't have allowed stylistically) one is devoted to the spirit of the horse because she is Rohirrim and the other has a Dunlending shaman-like character. Mostly it is healing and bless spells and I let the dice do the talking but I have the option of blocking up access for plot's sake or other influences or just poor roleplay.

Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2019, 04:09:20 PM »
It looks like ICE didn't view Middle Earth as a low magic setting, either. Looking at some of the sample PCs in various adventures shows lots of first level characters with spell adders, amulets that add to DB, etc. The 5th level characters have PP multipliers and daily items.
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Offline Aspire2Hope

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2019, 11:14:24 AM »
It looks like ICE didn't view Middle Earth as a low magic setting, either. Looking at some of the sample PCs in various adventures shows lots of first level characters with spell adders, amulets that add to DB, etc. The 5th level characters have PP multipliers and daily items.
adders don't really have much bite and a 2x multiplier when you only have 5PP is not a great boost but when you have 20PP it makes a huge difference. Just because the module says a character has it you don't need to use it or let the players have it. Equally, they need an attunement roll so still might not be able to use it. There are all sorts of ways to remove items from players :)

Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2019, 11:43:50 AM »
adders don't really have much bite and a 2x multiplier when you only have 5PP is not a great boost but when you have 20PP it makes a huge difference. Just because the module says a character has it you don't need to use it or let the players have it. Equally, they need an attunement roll so still might not be able to use it. There are all sorts of ways to remove items from players :)

I'm not looking to "remove items from players." I'm looking to give them what is in line with the setting and what seems fun for everyone (erring on the side of fun). :)
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Offline Aspire2Hope

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2019, 01:39:31 PM »
adders don't really have much bite and a 2x multiplier when you only have 5PP is not a great boost but when you have 20PP it makes a huge difference. Just because the module says a character has it you don't need to use it or let the players have it. Equally, they need an attunement roll so still might not be able to use it. There are all sorts of ways to remove items from players :)



I'm not looking to "remove items from players." I'm looking to give them what is in line with the setting and what seems fun for everyone (erring on the side of fun). :)
Seriously? You think players should be having fun *LOL*. Actually, I was pointing out that there isn't any need. The ability to cast a shockbolt is a serious drain on a mage, even with the advantage of multipliers at lower levels and +10 non-magical swords are ten a penny precisely because its the crits that kill you.

Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Clerics in Middle Earth
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2019, 03:03:23 PM »
Seriously? You think players should be having fun *LOL*. Actually, I was pointing out that there isn't any need. The ability to cast a shockbolt is a serious drain on a mage, even with the advantage of multipliers at lower levels and +10 non-magical swords are ten a penny precisely because its the crits that kill you.

Gotcha! :)
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