Topic: Ballistæ & Catapults…

[Nightblade42]

So I am in the process of developing the fleets that are going to be part of the Sea Law battle that is the next step in my Ekotai's March (a War Law/Sea Law Campaign set on my world of Nytheun).  One side has four Carracks (one large, two medium & one small); while the other side has four Caravels (one large and three small).  I'm wanting to arm them with non-canon (i.e. no gunpowder) weapons & have turned to the weapons listed in Sea Law's Weapons charts (SeL p.33 for reference).  Specifically I am looking at Ballistæ & possibly Mangonels.  But I'm not sure how many of these weapons would fit aboard these ships.  I've looked at historical examples of these ships (ex: Columbus' fleet included two Carracks & a Caravel) but they all carried canon.  In my world of Nytheun, there has not been a discovery of gunpowder.  And if you look at historical data on pre-gunpowder siege weapons (catapults & balliæstæ), you see really quick that these are massive machines.  There are some smaller versions that I think would be appropriate aboard sailing vessels (the Scorpion type Ballista is one example), but I'm not sure how those fit in with Sea Law's Weapon tables.  And again, how many of these would realistically fit aboard these ships?

Unfortunately there is not much in the way of guidelines within Sea Law for this.  In the Ship Statistics listings, you get "Varies" as their armament - which I understand, because at the time countries didn't have standing navies so ships would have been armed in all different ways.  And again, at the time (14th & 15th centuries) we had discovered gunpowder & had canons.

Any thoughts or suggestions (possibly websites where the size of these weapons are given) would be helpful.  If not, I might just have to make a semi-educated guess…

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[Hurin]

From what I remember (and I am no expert on medieval ships), you are right: the non-gunpowder siege machines were generally larger than cannon, so ships could only fit a few of them at most. Some of the smaller ones, like a Roman ballista (scorpion), were small enough that several could be fitted onto a ship. But something like a trebuchet was so big (and its lever, with the sling attached) had such a long arc that it would mostly be impractical for a ship with sails.

[Nightblade42]

So I dug a little deeper into SeL & started looking at the Kulthean Ship Stats for comparison.  The Barch (a medium sized, two-masted ship from Jaiman) has a very similar hull size to the large Carrack (Barch: Length = 100; Beam = 30; Draft 10 while the Large Carrack: Length = 100; Beam = 32; Draft = 10).  According to SeL the Barch is armed with 10 Heavy Mangonel, 12 Medium Mangonel & 16 Light Mangonel.  Perhaps I can use this as a starting point & extrapolate the armaments for the other vessels from this.  Or, perhaps I should just adapt the Barch as the type of ship used for the battle…

Thoughts to consider, I guess.  Still, I would welcome anyone's input on this topic.

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[Nightblade42]

From what I remember (and I am no expert on medieval ships), you are right: the non-gunpowder siege machines were generally larger than cannon, so ships could only fit a few of them at most. Some of the smaller ones, like a Roman ballista (scorpion), were small enough that several could be fitted onto a ship. But something like a trebuchet was so big (and its lever, with the sling attached) had such a long arc that it would mostly be impractical for a ship with sails.

That is pretty much what I had thought as well, Hurin.  Again, I looked at the Kulthean ship stats & I think I might adopt the Barch & maybe a few of the smaller, well armed vessels for the battle.  Thanks for your input!

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[Grinnen Baeritt]

I'd imagine that smaller catapults (Mongonels iirc) are actually quite compact and more could be carried. However they would be fairly short-ranged, with slow loading times and poor accuracy would make them relatively ineffective unless used to project inflammable projectiles.

Larger siege-weapons might be carried, but only against static land-based targets. In theory, rigging, Masts could be taken down first or the arc of the weapon restricted so that it either avoided them completely, or the weapon was sited in the bow (or stern) in much the same manner as greek-fire projectors.

I'd say that the amount of siege weapon type Ballastae that could be carried would be less.. but the Greeks did have both a repeating version and one that fired multiple bolts (or even solid shot).. which means that the combined rate of fire might be the same.     

[jdale]

What's the function of the weapon? A ballista that is intended to put holes in the hull is going to be pretty big, but you could probably use something quite a bit smaller if the intention is to have a very potent weapon for use against the enemy crew. Likewise, a catapult intended to sink the ship is going to be bigger than one designed to put buckets of rocks through the sail or scatter burning coals over the ship (to burn the ship and/or sails and keep the crew busy with fire-fighting).

Smaller, lighter weapons could line the sides where they would be applicable for boarding actions and passing. Something large enough to be targeted against a hull might even be a single weapon mounted facing the bow.

[Nightblade42]

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

jdale, you're right.  The first question should be what are the engines targeting?  Are they trying to puncture the hull or simply do damage to the crew or rigging?  If it's the latter, then smaller engines suffice.

Grinnen Bæritt, a repeating version is an interesting idea and certainly the Greeks (& others) did have this technology.  Another thing to think about.

I did end up using the Jaiman Barch in place of the Carracks and I used a Caravel from Emer in place of the historical ones in SeL.  Both SW vessels have armaments listed in SeL which makes things easy (and none of the Kulthean ships have gunpowder weapons). The WL/SeL Battle Report is slowly coming together for this battle.  Thank you all for your help!  I'll keep everyone updated as this project rolls along.

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[Nightblade42]

I started a thread in the Fan Created Worlds forum for my Ekotai's March WL Campaign.  I have posted the first part of The Siege of Noch Atiazith - the battle that incorporates both WL's siege mechanics as well as a Sea Law battle.

Here is the link: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=18534.0

Nightblade ->--