Topic: Initiative for spell casters

[Dalewarrior]

   Hi everyone,

I was just thinking which factors may enter into agreement with Initiative; it is rolled with 2D10+QU stat bonus. But this seems unfair for spell casters, who will always lose against arms users in Initiative as they put their high stats in Mental stats.

I thought maybe the primary mental stat might be used as a replacement for QU for spell casters. The class of the spells (I, II, III) might also enter into this equation. What would be your thoughts on this?

Cheers,
DW

[Majyk]

That could work, but every single one of my RM PCs - whether Arms, Semi, or Pure is a “dex-Monkey” with high AG for Directed Spells/Sweeps/Missile Weapons but extra high QU for DB!

If you’re never hit, you’re never crit’d!  That and you’re always first to act in any Initiative Phase in a Round.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

I use RE for magical initiative, with an additional bonus of +40 as my initiative is 100-based. I guess that if you use a 20-based initiative, you may add +8.

[Dalewarrior]

You've got experienced players, Majyk; our group is still catching up.

Yeah, OLF, I was thinking of something along those lines.

[Hurin]

What happens if a magic user wins initiative due to being allowed to use Reasoning as his initiative stat, but then decides to do something other than cast a spell, like take a physical action? Shouldn't a character with much higher quickness be quicker at taking a physical action?

That's the reason I'm hesitant to allow different stats to be used for initiative in my games. Like Majyk, my players realize that you can't neglect quickness if you want to get the drop on someone in combat.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

What happens if a magic user wins initiative due to being allowed to use Reasoning as his initiative stat, but then decides to do something other than cast a spell, like take a physical action? Shouldn't a character with much higher quickness be quicker at taking a physical action?

He keeps his initiative roll, but switching RE with QU and with a penalty of 40 for switching action.

That's the reason I'm hesitant to allow different stats to be used for initiative in my games.

The roll being kept, it's still way easier than most RM2 mechanics, with several rolls, table reading and all, so it's hardly a problem.

Like Majyk, my players realize that you can't neglect quickness if you want to get the drop on someone in combat.

I think most of my NPCs rate QU quite low, as its benefits is foremost for DB, something you can "easily" compensate with items, especially in high levels. Between high AG/ST or QU, meaning between not getting hit or hitting harder, they'd rather choose the former, as evading your enemy's strikes doesn't make them stop. Killing him faster OTOH...

[brole]

Hi.
You could use Eloquence stat that was introduced in Companion III for spell initiative.

The way it was presented was to replace Memory stat and is used for casting speed and orientation rolls. It's a measure of mental quickness.

(The character sheet I am building for a planned pbem uses both Memory and Eloquence stats).

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[Dr Jim]

Another system I play has initiative as a skill which can be developed, it represents "coolness under fire" / experience of being in combat. I can't remember if there is anything like this in the companions, but it could easily be introduced.

James

[Dalewarrior]

Brole, I read the material on Eloquence; Memory is indeed a skill seldom used.

James, coolness under fire is a key factor of training, and according to the GM, it could be included in the OB.

In AD&D, I think spell casting depended on the complexity and level of the spell, just as there are Class I; II; and III spells.

Cheers!
António

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Brole, I read the material on Eloquence; Memory is indeed a skill seldom used.

Just 99% of all academic skills, and all the magical lore skills (which is a good portion of the magical skills), indeed. Out of the 245 skills I'm using, it's "merely" used in 57 skills, meaning 23.27% of all skills. Compared to say, QU (7.75%) or... ST (10.61%). Oh, and CO (4 skills, or 1.63%). Yes, indeed, seldom used.

In AD&D, I think spell casting depended on the complexity and level of the spell, just as there are Class I; II; and III spells.

In 3.x, absolutely not. Each spell has its own casting time that doesn't change with the caster's level, the way it works with RM2's spells. Casting most takes one standard action.

[Peter R]

BHanson has a house rule were you can sacrifice a portion of your DB for increased initiative. That would work for directed spells vs melee.

[Hurin]

Brole, I read the material on Eloquence; Memory is indeed a skill seldom used.

Just 99% of all academic skills, and all the magical lore skills (which is a good portion of the magical skills), indeed. Out of the 245 skills I'm using, it's "merely" used in 57 skills, meaning 23.27% of all skills. Compared to say, QU (7.75%) or... ST (10.61%). Oh, and CO (4 skills, or 1.63%). Yes, indeed, seldom used.

It may be in a lot of skills, but I tend to agree with Dalewarrior in the sense that it isn't often used for primary skills. In all my years of playing, I have never had a character choose ME as his/her highest stat; I doubt anyone has chosen it second highest or even third highest. Granted, we play a combat-heavy game, and it is true that Lore skills are useful... but generally not as useful as having a higher DB and initiative (Qu) or a good OB (St). So while Me is in a lot of skills, those skills tend to be mostly secondary and non-combat skills.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

It may be in a lot of skills, but I tend to agree with Dalewarrior in the sense that it isn't often used for primary skills. In all my years of playing, I have never had a character choose ME as his/her highest stat; I doubt anyone has chosen it second highest or even third highest. Granted, we play a combat-heavy game, and it is true that Lore skills are useful... but generally not as useful as having a higher DB and initiative (Qu) or a good OB (St). So while Me is in a lot of skills, those skills tend to be mostly secondary and non-combat skills.

Meaning that it depends on your kind of gaming. Political, investigation, or social heavy games would have a lot of people with such skills. As I'm sure how much often people play combat only games compared to the previous, I'd still maintain that saying outright that "Memory is a skill seldom used" whilst it is one of the stats with the most skills using it.

[Peter R]

In RM stats are mostly pointless. When you get to about 5th level or above the contribution stat bonuses make to skill totals is dwindling away in significance.

[Prince Finnion]

My casters make this complaint often but I remind them that A- they take first action a the top of each combat round regardless of initiative and B- when they do cast it can be quite devastating or game changing in some way.  If they study the rules of casting and get to know their lists well they can be very effective, at about level 8 they tend to gain momentum and in just a few more levels surpass pure arms users.

Of course if they're not playing a combat oriented caster, a healer for example, I can see how they might be more frustrated.

I just preach patience and my main caster player is starting to understand why.  He's basically drooling at the idea of his Mage at level 6 because he wants to shoot Fire bolt and Ice bolt.