Persuasion skill

[rsarres]

I have not found any persuasion skill on Rolemaster Classic, a skill a player would use to convince a NPC in a discussion. One player in our team have
Exceptional Voice:
"Your voice has a soothing tone which gives you a +15 to any roll when you attempt an verbal action to calm or persuade someone: e.g. in conversation, singing, public speaking, trading, acting, "Calm" spells, etc."

He invested heavly in verbal skills like public speaking and acting to leverage on this bonus, however we did not find any persuasion skill. We are using his seduction bonus for persuasion actions, but it is more applicable to opposite sex NPCs and related to romantic matters.

Any ideas?

[jdale]

RMC Character Law says:

"Seduction: (Em/Pr) This skill provides a bonus when attempting to emotionally, sensually, or sexually manipulate someone. This is not limited to sexual seduction — manipulation of a person's sensual sensibilities or tempting a person to indulge in some fantasy or desire is also seduction."

I would say don't get too hung up on the sexual part of it. It's also about emotional manipulation and persuasion. What it excludes is persuasion based on facts, information, and logic. I don't know if there is a skill in RMC for that. I would probably just use Seduction for those too, and give a bonus if the facts and logic are helpful to the argument. If the facts and logic are in favor, and they also have no emotional objection, then you don't really need a skill, you've already won.

[MisterK]

In addition to Seduction, RM2 has Diplomacy and Leadership that would fall in this category, at least.

[Spectre771]

In addition to Seduction, RM2 has Diplomacy and Leadership that would fall in this category, at least.

As well as Duping.  It all depends on the PC archetype, the interaction the player is looking for, and what possible consequences the player/PC are willing to accept if it fails.

The diplomatic approach would be nice and if it fails, the PC was 'respectful' or diplomatic and maybe impressed the NPC so the outcome is perhaps not detrimental.  Duping is fast talking, verbal trickery.  If it succeeds, the duped person may hold a grudge, and if it fail, the NPC maybe mad the PC tried to play them for a fool.  Leadership would be more effective with a crowd, and if it fails....


"We're Streaking!  We're going up through the quad into the gymnasium!"
"Who's streaking!?"
"There's more coming."

[rsarres]

Thank you all! Very useful information.

[Wolfwood]

It is an interesting gap in the skill table.

Seduction = persuasion with emotions, populism.
Duping = confusing someone with fast talk etc.
Diplomacy = working in a bureaucracy, negotiation, deceit.

There's no skill for persuading someone with facts.

[MisterK]

It is an interesting gap in the skill table.

Seduction = persuasion with emotions, populism.
Duping = confusing someone with fast talk etc.
Diplomacy = working in a bureaucracy, negotiation, deceit.

There's no skill for persuading someone with facts.

One could argue that, if you present facts, you don't need a skill - the skill is not in the facts but in the persuasion in any case.
However, I do think that a skill such as Rhetoric could be added. My current split of social skills include Befuddle (trying to deceive using obfuscation and confusion), Captivate (trying to attract and keep attention through allure and presence), Rhetoric (trying to reason with someone by using logic, facts, and debate) and Tribune (trying to convince a crowd by sheer presence and using the right words for maximum effect).
I don't have a skill for negotiation because negotiation is a action and how you do the action matters - if you try to negotiate by using reasoning and logic, that's Rhetoric. If you try to negotiate by lying and duping your counterpart, that's Befuddle. If you try to charm them into accepting your bid, that's Captivate. And if you try to seal the deal by appealing to the masses to pressure your counterpart into accepting, that's Tribune.

[Wolfwood]

However, I do think that a skill such as Rhetoric could be added. My current split of social skills include Befuddle (trying to deceive using obfuscation and confusion), Captivate (trying to attract and keep attention through allure and presence), Rhetoric (trying to reason with someone by using logic, facts, and debate) and Tribune (trying to convince a crowd by sheer presence and using the right words for maximum effect).

Rhetoric would actually be the best fit for this. Arguing with facts and logic is something that needs skill: you have to be able to present facts logically and draw clear conclusions (clear to the listener, not only the speaker) in order to persuade someone of the relevance and importance of the facts.

[Spectre771]

We also use Public Speaking or Propaganda for using facts or false information.

If a player spent DP in a skill, I try to find a way they get to use it.  One player took Architecture skill, I managed to set up an adventure where the skill would be helpful and it ended up working to the benefit of the party.

[MisterK]

We also use Public Speaking or Propaganda for using facts or false information.

If a player spent DP in a skill, I try to find a way they get to use it.  One player took Architecture skill, I managed to set up an adventure where the skill would be helpful and it ended up working to the benefit of the party.

Public Speaking would be Tribune. IMHO, you don't use Public Speaking to discuss with someone else using logic, you use it to convince a crowd.
And Propaganda is not limited to false information - that would be too easy to debunk. It is best used when actual facts are presented with a bias. It is also a skill that requires time (and resources) for proper use. A single check might span weeks of effort using criers, pamphlets, and people "incidentally" talking about that thing in the proper circles.

As for using characters' skills, another option can be to let players ask if they can learn something interesting using a skill and be liberal with it. If the party approaches ruins, for instance, a whole slew of skills can be used for good effect (Architecture, Masonry, History, Sculpture, Monster Lore, Mythology, Religion, Occult Lore, Survival...) The thing is, as a GM, you have to be ready to give information, even if it is a bit of a stretch or if you hadn't actually planned for it. You also have to be ready to give your plot a twist to integrate the information you just gave (for instance, if the ruins are the lair of a lesser drake or other monster in your original plot, a successful Occult Lore check might give information on ancient rituals of binding that were performed here - perhaps the drake has been corrupted or possessed by spirits ? A Religion check might indicate that the ruins were part of an ancient holy site dedicated to the Moon Goddess, She-of-four-faces, but that this site was more dedicated to the Full Moon that provides light in the night - a good omen. While a History roll might indicate that there was a quite bloody schism within the Moon Goddess cult in ancient times and that the New Moon and Full Moon cultists waged a covert war, and that both sub-cults were eager to desecrate the other's holy sites using rituals involving sacrifices. And so on, and so on.

Grab a cool idea and run with it. Both the ruins and the drake will gain context and personality, and the players will see that a skill can be used in unconventional ways.

[Hurin]

I just reflavor Diplomacy to include convincing people with facts.