Preparing polls for your opinions to the next Shadowworld product...

[munchy]

I would support the idea to publish Jaiman as a starter again first. I think it has a cool setting, offers lots of different areas and two clear big evils and a couple of smaller ones, legendary places to visit, safe havens to profit from. It offer so many different terrains and realms to have adventures in while still being smaller in size than Emer which I often found a bit too big to adventure in as you always wanted to see all the different realms but then would have to move so much around the continent - and some of them felt a bit overwhelming and too big and set in their ways for you to be able to change anything. Jaiman on the other has ancients and fallen realms, thus lots of ruins and warlord, smaller evils to deal with, is more open for own material and more compact when it comes to moving from one region to the next. I still run campaigns in Jaiman, and not in Emer.

[Cory Magel]

Of course, there are differences, but my point is exactly that the material is usable out of the box since the differences are indeed subtle. I am saying this as somebody who played most of Shadow World by using the RMSS system while making very small and rare adjustments. The obvious exception is power points. Core RM2 rules will make magic players close to unplayable due to the lack of power points...on the other hand, almost every significant NPC from Shadow World has magic items that overcome such rule system-induced weaknesses.

I wouldn't say 'out of the box' at all. RM2 to RMSS has differences in how skill ranks are purchased, a significant difference in how spell lists are learned, differences in how profession bonuses work, differences in how the round works.  If you're well versed in both systems that's not a huge problem, but it's a mistake to assume everyone is.

The differences in power levels within RM2 companions and between different SW books are huge, quite many SW NPC cannot be built legally in any version of the game. Why would the power level of RMU be a problem in practice?

RMU has some subtle differences also, but things that are more difficult to account for. Things like the number of attacks allowed per round and how Haste works are good examples. In RMSS you could only make one attack action per round, in RMU you can make two (or more?).  Spell lists with Haste on them don't have the same balance due to the changes in how Haste itself works.

Rolemaster isn't that complex to use, but the design definitely is.  If you aren't careful it's really easy to create a rule that breaks things you hadn't considered.

I've always been a proponent of ICE publishing materials with stats for all their currently supported rule-sets. Not necessarily the core rule books, but any setting material, modules, etc.
I've been saying for many years Shadow World should have been the one official ICE setting with stats for both RM and HARP in anything put out for it.

Publishing RMSS or RMFRP materials with stats from RM2 could have helped sell those editions books to older version users too, but RMU makes that idea much more complex unfortunately.
All the versions of RM previous to RMU were pretty easily converted if you were fairly experienced with the system.

I have the exact opposite view. If the game that new books is coming out for is RMU then that is the game that should be used for stats, skills etc for all new publications. Folks that are using old versions of the game will change or adjust what they want in new material regardless of whether it has RMSS or RM2 information included. Look at the lack of progress and time it takes out of production for someone to actually do 2-3 sets of stats etc. RM and RMSS are dead games even if they have a player base. RMU is the current version of the game and it should be the only game for which there is support. Part of the problem with release scheduling has been the addition of all the other material and the hangers on for legacy support.

My main point in what you are replying to is that any official game world should dual stat for RMU and HARP, not neccesarily between previous RM editions.

Whilst I broadly agree with that, I would imagine that there is a lot more people still using RM2 and RMSS, than there are actually using RMU. So, the question should be - do they want to deliberately restrict their customer base to the amount of people who are just using RMU, compared to the people who still use RM2 and RMSS?

I've got RMU for completeness, but I will probably never actually use it - as too much of the stuff I have invested both time and money in are still RM2.

Well, you don't want your old core system versions to compete with each other. But when it comes to non-core material (meaning a setting rather than core rulebooks) you could very well end up selling most those books to the RM2 and RMSS users like yourself that most of us realize are unlikely to convert to RMU.

[Micael]

Tomorrow, I will compile all the ideas from the Discord server, the Shadow World forum, and the discussion B. Hanson started on the same topic (which you can read here). Then, I'll launch a poll ONLY on the discord server to gather your opinions: https://www.rolemasterblog.com/resetting-shadow-world-post-terry-amthor/

On the Shadow World forum, my current status doesn't allow me to post and update a poll as frequently as needed.
Have fun!
Micael

[Micael]

Hiya, today I have posted the questions of the poll for your information- if you want to change something, please inform me- you can´t vote today but have now the possibility to add or change the questions if possible: https://discord.com/channels/699316643716923483/705098090251550871/1297865477153882226
Have fun
Micael

[Micael]

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The poll for your favorite Shadow World product and rule system has started today: https://discord.com/channels/699316643716923483/705098090251550871/1298535279547781173
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[katastrophe]

My main point in what you are replying to is that any official game world should dual stat for RMU and HARP, not neccesarily between previous RM editions.

On this we agree. Though I personally believe that HARP and RMU should have been merged into one game ages ago, with some of the major differences such as magic put into its own book as a "different way to play" rather than having dual development of two games that otherwise are greatly similar. Having one game world for development would also aid greatly in resource allocation.

[Micael]

I don´t know HARP really, what similarities are there between Rolemaster (RMU/RFRP) and HARP?

Thanks

Micael

[katastrophe]

HARP is the spiritual successor to MERP. It is a sometimes simpler version of RMSS but its approach to the magic system is technically different. On the surface and through the low levels there is a real similarity but once you pass about 5th the games and power levels diverge significantly. The skills and such are very similar and combat is similar on the surface but once again outside of the low levels the games diverge.

[Cory Magel]

I don´t know HARP really, what similarities are there between Rolemaster (RMU/RFRP) and HARP?
Thanks
Micael

Broadly, HARP is essentially a condensed RM in many respects.  There are some different races but they work similarly, most the professions are the similar, the mechanics are mostly the same, AT's and Weapons tables that have been condensed into a smaller number of charts.  The biggest difference is there are three (if I recall right) types of magic and you select spells from the group and type of spells, there are no individual profession 'spell lists' and there's only one spell of a given spell, you just can 'scale' them up in various ways (range, # of targets, area of effect, etc).  I like the idea of scaling your spells, and is something that would be neat to try and work into RM, but that would be major undertaking in deciding how you'd keep professions spell selection as customized as they currently are.  I fully understand one could point out many characters in RM can end up with fairly similar spell lists, but it's not quite the same thing.

Obviously I am biased towards RM as I like added detail, options and variation, but I never really 'got' HARP.  We played one campaign with it and immediately went back to RM.  We understood it just fine, but it just seemed more limiting in fairly superficial ways.  From my point of view, it's mechanics really don't work any 'easier', it just has less options and variation and, unless a user is incapable of differentiating detail and options from 'complicated', I don't know why someone would choose it over RM.  My suspicion is it exists simply to try and penetrate a new customer base with the misguided notion that RM's larger selection of options and variation is somehow complex.

But then, this has always been my problem with the majority of people that bad mouth RM for being 'complex'.  It's mechanics should not be complicated for most existing RPGers.  It just has a lot of detail and options.  Going from D&D to RM is like being given five cars to choose from that are all essentially the same mechanically, then being given one hundred cars to choose that are essentially all the same mechanically but have more choices in... size, color or shape.  They all work the same.  They turn on the same, have the same console controls, shift the same, you just get more choice.  Options don't complicate, you just have to decide what you want and what you don't... and being indecisive doesn't mean something is complex.

[metallion]

As I've said since 1995, RM2 meets my game system needs and I will never purchase an update.  This includes RMU.
The Shadow World published material also meets my needs and I will never  repurchase things I already have unless there is significant new content.

I would definitely purchase Emer, and I've been saying that for several years.  New content on other areas would also have my interest.

[Malim]

Jaiman!

Do a master Jaiman map, online interactive zoom in out and make it a open IP, maybe with CC.
Do Area books, like court of Halkataine, but for the lands, Saralis, Ulyshak, Rhakaan, Meluria etc.
Just make a well descibed play ground for Jaiman.

[MisterK]

On Jaiman, the only products that would interest me in the slightest are Ly-Aran, Wuliris (done the right way this time) and Lu'Nak. Urulan could be interesting for some people, but I've already used it (in the same vein, I would likely not buy Emer IV because I can be 100% sure that it would contradict what I've already done).

Having something on Gaalt would sure be interesting. An intriguing prospect could be to redo Folenn so that it fits the rest of the Shadow World better instead of being a glaring almost self-contained bubble made only for a skirmish game.

But if the idea is to do something that introduces new groups to Shadow World, I think we have a few settings already in the product line: Sel-Kai and Haalkitaine for purely urban settings, the Bay of Izar for a regional setting... Vog Mur was quite the nice setup for beginning adventurers washed ashore (and/or locals) but would likely require a bit more low-level meat on the bones, because some of the local denizens are clearly above the low-level adventurer pay grade.

I know boxed sets are not the kind of products that sell nowadays, but the digital equivalent (bundle) could be built - a very local setting such as Vog Mur but located elsewhere (perhaps somewhere in the Bay of Izar ?) with pregen characters, an urban setting (the city of Izar, to continue the example), a regional module (the Bay of Izar), the Player's Guide, and an abridged version of the Master Atlas. It could even be presented as a 3-booklet version of the Pathfinder Story Paths, with a continuing campaign (1-5, 5-8, 8-10) to give something to play in the local, then regional setting.
Of course, you can do that in various locales - Khum-Kaan (around Ardania), Silaar (in Reandor or Nuyan-Khôm), U-Lyshak (around Cynar)... Using the Bay of Izar allows to reuse part of the existing material, that's all.

Vog Mur was less than 40 pages long, including front and back covers (the back cover being a map of the island cluster, which was great use of space and was a staple of World of Loremasters products). I think that, with proper focus and editing, you can do a lot with limited space, and it should be possible to bring the whole bundle in the 200-250 page range total, thus limiting the price as well.

[katastrophe]

Doing a new Jaiman book similarly to what has been stated previously would be the best way to bring in new players and would allow seasoned players to start a new campaign using RMU. The advantage of Jaiman is that there is a mini campaign already in place in the main book. The Norek book has a mini-campaign as well ending in the release of a big bad. And from the standpoint of having an overall look at the powers acting in Shadow World there are some major players that the PCs would get to interact with Andraxx Sulthun and Lorgalis. Rewriting it as a complete campaign beginning in Norek (levels 1-5/6), doing the Sea Crown Saga (5-10) and possibly something for 10-15. There would not need to be a bunch of new adventures written to be added but some filler adventures to buff out what is already there would be great for new players and GMs and for players that have not played those campaigns in 10-15 years.

Doing those books with RMU stats would also give a great feel for how to create critters, heroes and villains, and power players that are outside of the norm (Lorgalis, Andrax, Priest Arnak, Heralds and Sulthun would be prime examples). Also, it would give opportunities for the writers to think through what new professions would be required - hence the need for a new mini book maybe with professions and races.

This would look something like.

Book 1 = Redone Shadow World Atlas with RMU/HARP stats for Shadow World races (as listed in the Shadow World current atlas but updated for RMU and a list of new professions - possibly 5-10.
Book 2 = Redone Jaiman Book 1 with general regional information about the continent of Jaiman, all the players, timelines, etc.
Book 3 = Adventures for levels 1-5 or so in and around Norek with some trips and an adventure or two into U'lesheck and Hailkitain that will set up the events of Books 4 and 5 but will also introduce the characters to some NPCs that will be adventure hooks and links to/for Book 4 and 5.
Book 4 = Adventures in and around U'Lesheck battling the forces Arnak and seeking the Sea Drake Crown with Prince Kier, along with some adventures around Halkitaiin and the mess there with the false Emperor, Sulthun, Andrax and the ultimate war with the Prince Arnak Regent.
Book 5 =  Adventures resulting from the aftermath of the deactivation of the crowns for players levels 10-15 maybe - depending on how the estimated XP for the Book 4 adventures goes.

Though I organized this into 5 books, that is not to say that they need to be huge tomes by any means. They would essentially be the size of the current books they are based on but would be cleaned up significantly. And this would not require total rewrites of the existing material, just some combining of some of the books and materials and pulling out repetitive material that was present in multiple books due to the way there were written. Also, this would allow there to be some sort of players books and GM books so that the GM material would not be in the same books that players would be looking at. Books 3-4 would be typical adventure books for GMs with handouts, maps NPC stats etc. The Atlas and Jaiman book would be things players would check out to have background and general information on the area, region, and they would see the stats for critters and some of the major players but those folks would not be people they would be interacting with in any way that them seeing their stats, history goals etc would matter unless players were really metagaming.

Now, this seems like a lot but it really is not. In, fact, the bulk of the material already exists. All that needs to be done is the for the material to be cleaned up, organized into a single campaign designed for one set of players to move from one set of adventures to another and for there to be some small filler adventures to be interjected into the adventures and hooks that already exist in the Jaiman, Norek and Hailkitain books and doing stats and adjustments so that it works for RMU. 

I understand that for people that have long ongoing campaigns with people that have been playing for some time this is not the ideal product. Mainly since they have both rewritten the rules and arent typically even using RMU and they have also developed way beyond any early Shadow World material that have been out for 20 years.

[MisterK]

I understand that for people that have long ongoing campaigns with people that have been playing for some time this is not the ideal product. Mainly since they have both rewritten the rules and arent typically even using RMU and they have also developed way beyond any early Shadow World material that have been out for 20 years.

That's the crux of the matter, isn't it ? Do you want to appeal to new players almost exclusively, or do you want the existing Shadow World player base to buy the products as well ?
As part of the existing Shadow World player base, I know where I stand in this discussion. But then again, if the product line is such that I don't buy anything that comes out for it anymore, so be it. I mean, I'm not the one counting the chickens at the end of the day.

[katastrophe]

I get where you're coming from but their are several problems that don't have easy answers.

In my opinion the desire to feed the legacy game players has been the death of RM. putting in RM2 stats into older books just delayed adoption of RMSS/RMFRP. I understand that was an Amthor thing because if I recall correctly he wrote the material for RM2 and didn't switch to RMSS. RMU will suffer the same fate if there's an attempt to please legacy players.

The other issue is that any new material that tries to include RM2 or RMSS stats will just take forever to make it to production. Look at the current production of RMU. It's taken essential 2 decades to put out an updated game and there's still 1 more boom needed for basic play and 2-3 books needed for semi-advanced play. That's another 2 years for basic books.

Creating new material for Shadow World is a 5 year projection easy, particularly if you're talking about completely writing new stuff. What I suggest is something that can be done in a year (I'd say less but again look at the current book and the time to reach pdf distribution). The faster they can get a product on the shelf to go along with RMU and or HARP the better. At some point any possible new players will just lose interest. At least getting out a product updated for RMU with minimal rewrites and a decent amount of new cleaned up and reorganized material would be great for the game.

Your issue Mr. K is different. You've likely played through all the material out there and advanced your own timeline. There is no product that would satisfy your gaming needs for Shadow World unless they wrote something set far into the future (hence your timeline would be irrelevant) or for an area of Kulthea which has nothing written so that it's completely new. That's a huge undertaking.itd take years to get that planned, written and prepared. It'd be 2030 by the time anyone would see that project.

[Micael]

I get where you're coming from but their are several problems that don't have easy answers.

In my opinion the desire to feed the legacy game players has been the death of RM. putting in RM2 stats into older books just delayed adoption of RMSS/RMFRP. I understand that was an Amthor thing because if I recall correctly he wrote the material for RM2 and didn't switch to RMSS. RMU will suffer the same fate if there's an attempt to please legacy players.

The other issue is that any new material that tries to include RM2 or RMSS stats will just take forever to make it to production. Look at the current production of RMU. It's taken essential 2 decades to put out an updated game and there's still 1 more boom needed for basic play and 2-3 books needed for semi-advanced play. That's another 2 years for basic books.

Creating new material for Shadow World is a 5 year projection easy, particularly if you're talking about completely writing new stuff. What I suggest is something that can be done in a year (I'd say less but again look at the current book and the time to reach pdf distribution). The faster they can get a product on the shelf to go along with RMU and or HARP the better. At some point any possible new players will just lose interest. At least getting out a product updated for RMU with minimal rewrites and a decent amount of new cleaned up and reorganized material would be great for the game.

Your issue Mr. K is different. You've likely played through all the material out there and advanced your own timeline. There is no product that would satisfy your gaming needs for Shadow World unless they wrote something set far into the future (hence your timeline would be irrelevant) or for an area of Kulthea which has nothing written so that it's completely new. That's a huge undertaking.itd take years to get that planned, written and prepared. It'd be 2030 by the time anyone would see that project.

It depends really if the nearly finished material from T.K.Amthor is available or not. If we could build on Terry's material it should be possible to publish it with another editing pass and RMU conversion in the near future. Here the HARP conversion would be a more time consuming act or do you know somebody who could do this fast for a full campaign expansion like Jaimain NE or Emer IV? But most probably such product will not be an adventure starting point for a new RMU campaign, so that have to be solved somehow. Therefore also the posibility of a campaign expansion and revision of an already established starting adventure like Tales of the green gryphon inn or quellbourn,land of the silver mist is in the vote. It would be much faster and would bring new material for everyone. If Terry's material is no longer available or even forbidden to use, then completely new or revised material not written by him like Quellbourne or demons of the burning might could be a elegant quicker way to get a starting campaign adventure for RMU on the way...

[Cory Magel]

In my opinion the desire to feed the legacy game players has been the death of RM. putting in RM2 stats into older books just delayed adoption of RMSS/RMFRP.

I disagree completely. Large numbers of those players didn't switch to RMSS. Just like a lot of RM users pre-RMU aren't going to switch to RMU. Every new version of an RPG loses old customers and gains new ones and I believe RM suffers from this more than most systems. Dual stating new non-core books, however, will help sell those books to older version users.

The other issue is that any new material that tries to include RM2 or RMSS stats will just take forever to make it to production.

I don't agree at all there either. It's pretty easy for a person with a good knowledge of all the versions to convert stuff.

Look at the current production of RMU. It's taken essential 2 decades to put out an updated game and there's still 1 more boom needed for basic play and 2-3 books needed for semi-advanced play. That's another 2 years for basic books.

That has absolutely nothing to do with dual stating.

At some point any possible new players will just lose interest.

I think that bridge was crossed a long time ago.

Your issue Mr. K is different. You've likely played through all the material out there and advanced your own timeline. There is no product that would satisfy your gaming needs for Shadow World unless they wrote something set far into the future (hence your timeline would be irrelevant) or for an area of Kulthea which has nothing written so that it's completely new. That's a huge undertaking.itd take years to get that planned, written and prepared. It'd be 2030 by the time anyone would see that project.

I'd argue this is true of RM as a whole.  RM users have traditionally be fairly veteran gamers and, as such, they've created their own version of RM over the years (we all know this is broadly true - just about every RM group has their own variations).  We used RM1 and a little RM2 with AD&D 2nd Ed, we moved to MERP using RM2 material with it, then we moved to RMSS just as it was coming out.  Now, granted, we have a couple authors in our group so we're obviously comfortable writing our own material, but I don't think that really makes us that special.  I think lots of experienced RM users did this.  So, once you've created your own RM, unless something comes out that can improve upon that (and people will have biased towards their own version of RM), what's the motivation to switch to an entirely new RM?  I like the current guys at ICE and I intend to support them in some respects, but I'm never going to use the RMU system as a whole.

I think RMU should have been aimed solely at new users, and changed fairly significantly, or aimed at existing users and blended the best aspects of both the RM1/RM2/RMC side and the RMSS/RMFRP side while ditching the less popular aspects of them.  In my opinion, what's being put out does not focus on either of those things.  As a result I think this makes dual stating the non-core materials even more important.

[jdale]

You kind of had to create your own game in RM1/RM2. It was a really great kit that you could assemble a game from. It wasn't quite ready to go out of the box. So it's expected that anyone playing it has done so. Maybe that's less true with RMC? I don't know.

My general impression from reading people's comments is that RM2 people are more likely to stick with that edition and RMSS/RMFRP people are more likely to consider RMU. For the latter group, the main sticking point is just that they want more material released, which is something that takes time but I expect we will deliver on it.

[Micael]

You kind of had to create your own game in RM1/RM2. It was a really great kit that you could assemble a game from. It wasn't quite ready to go out of the box. So it's expected that anyone playing it has done so. Maybe that's less true with RMC? I don't know.

My general impression from reading people's comments is that RM2 people are more likely to stick with that edition and RMSS/RMFRP people are more likely to consider RMU. For the latter group, the main sticking point is just that they want more material released, which is something that takes time but I expect we will deliver on it.

I am an RMSS/RFRP guy now (after using RM2 two decades ago) and I now not considering changing to RMU completely but using it instead as addon kit- especially the creature law will have much information older editions were missing... so the sales of RMU are not reflecting people who will change to RMU but a lot of supporters like me and people who will take a slice of RMU using it together with their home setting...

[Micael]

Heya, the results of the poll for the next shadow world products including RMU are finished and here are your results😃😃: https://discord.com/channels/699316643716923483/705098090251550871....Thank you very much for your participation. A similar count of voters have done a poll 10 years ago to Terry's call with similar results. Have fun micael