Topic: Space Master Unified

[Grimsouled]

I see an old post from years ago, but was wondering if there's been any progress/thoughts on an updated Space Master rules system based off the new Rolemaster Unified system?

Thanks.

[Thot]

I remember that they mentioned here on the forums vague plans for not a seperate ruleset, but basically a companion for RMU that covers the genre. I don't know how far they are with it.

But I would say you can use RMU as-is for space settings pretty easily. All the skills are there, and for weapon attack tables, you could simply use the appropriate magic attack tables.

[Grimsouled]

But I would say you can use RMU as-is for space settings pretty easily. All the skills are there, and for weapon attack tables, you could simply use the appropriate magic attack tables.

Funny, we had already reached that conclusion that the characters could just be RMU. Hadn't thought about using the magic attack tables for the guns... will look into that. The biggest issue we are struggling with are the vehicle attack tables. We've looked thru several different versions and they seem to be all over the place. Any suggestion on which version is best? (We've looked at SM2 Player's Book, Star Strike, & Privateers so far).

[Thot]

Well, I'd probably use my old Star Strike box's tables for ships (space and air), but if I were to just use RMU, I'd just use regular crit tables and "translate" the results to the ship's systems. Maybe going with the scaling rules for attacks and expanding upon them.

[pantsorama]

Well, I'd probably use my old Star Strike box's tables for ships (space and air), but if I were to just use RMU, I'd just use regular crit tables and "translate" the results to the ship's systems. Maybe going with the scaling rules for attacks and expanding upon them.

The bonus is Star Strike has Mechs!

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/93633/Armored-Assault

[Hansuke]

Funny, we had already reached that conclusion that the characters could just be RMU. Hadn't thought about using the magic attack tables for the guns... will look into that. The biggest issue we are struggling with are the vehicle attack tables. We've looked thru several different versions and they seem to be all over the place. Any suggestion on which version is best? (We've looked at SM2 Player's Book, Star Strike, & Privateers so far).

I have also ooked into just using RMU characters. I started building extra skills; just have to go back to it again. I think I need to sit down and look at vehicles again. I like Star Strike for my basic building blocks, but I like the tech level ideas from Privateers for a more detailed look.

[rdanhenry]

You'll need some additional skills, but shouldn't need additional categories, so the profession-building rules should work, though skill costs could be real cheap if you allowed just driving all the magical skill categories to maximum cost. I'd suggest setting Delving, Magical Expertise, Power Manipulation, and Spellcasting at the Fighter's costs (as the archetypical non-magical person) for all science fiction professions. This would allow the Warrior Monk, Rogue, and Laborer to be brought over as is, if desired.

You might repurpose one or more of those categories if your science fiction game is going to use magic psychic abilities.

[Grimsouled]

You'll need some additional skills, but shouldn't need additional categories, so the profession-building rules should work

I agree that the categories will work as is with the addition of skills or specializations to existing skills. Will have to tread carefully on the profession-building rules, too.

So from the earlier post about using the existing tables to make future weapons. Had the idea of using the Fire Bolt table to reflect Lasers. Then, to assign sizes to the different weapons and adjust their damage accordingly. So a Ring Laser would be Size 1, Pen Laser - Size 2, Holdout Laser - Size 3, Laser Pistol - Size 4, Laser Carbine - Size 5, Laser Rifle - Size 6, Heavy Laser Rifle - Size 7...

[Hansuke]

As to the attack tables, I think it might be worth taking a look at the tables from Cyberspace. There are only 4 personal armor types (None, LBA, ABS and AEX). There are only 5 vehicle construction armor types also (21-25). There might be some insight to be gained based on this book and how it might be converted to RMU. I just thought about it, and need to review it in more depth though.

[Grimsouled]

Another thing plaguing me was how to handle the armor types vs different eras of weaponry. So full plate is AT10, but so is powered armor... vastly different levels of protection, though. How do you reflect that in the game? Give a big DB bonus to the powered armor? but then weapons specifically designed to defeat that armor, say like a plasma rifle, would need a compensatory boost to OB... can get very complicated very quickly and we don't want to go back to that. What I'm liking about RMU is the logical and streamlined way the system has been created.
Something I thought of was to classify weapons and armor in 3 categories which can overlap - Archaic (your standard RMU weapons and armor), Ballistic (solids propelled at high velocity), and Energy (lasers, plasma, blasters, etc.). Typically, weapons will only be of 1 category, but armors can have up to all three. If an armor doesn't protect against a type of attack then it is treated as AT1. For example, take a Kevlar vest, we'll call it AT6 and give it the Archaic and Ballistic categories. So against Archaic and Ballistic weapons it is AT6 but against Energy weapons it's AT1. Similarly, an ablative vest is AT6 Energy so it provides AT6 vs all Energy attacks but is AT1 versus Archaic and Ballistic. Lastly your knightly Plate is AT10 Archaic providing great protection vs Archaic weapons but AT1 vs Ballistic & Energy.

[pantsorama]

RE: Skills

I think that Spacemaster also needs more culture skills - unless the campaign is set in a Distopia, almost everyone will have a skill subset that reflects a pre-university school education.

So things like Basic Math, Science: General, Driving, etc. might get at least 1 rank for all players.

Either that or one should reset the level of what requires a skill roll - something that is routine (or even forgoes a roll) in Basic Math for a 25th C Pilot might be a Medium roll or harder for someone from an erzatz 12-16th C farmer.

[Hurin]

Another thing plaguing me was how to handle the armor types vs different eras of weaponry. So full plate is AT10, but so is powered armor... vastly different levels of protection, though. How do you reflect that in the game? Give a big DB bonus to the powered armor? but then weapons specifically designed to defeat that armor, say like a plasma rifle, would need a compensatory boost to OB... can get very complicated very quickly and we don't want to go back to that. 

Yes, that's the problem. SM2 didn't really deal all that effectively with it iirc, and while SM:P did address it more directly, it came at the cost of more complicated charts. So I'm hoping a SMU might be able to deal with it more elegantly.

What I'm liking about RMU is the logical and streamlined way the system has been created.
Something I thought of was to classify weapons and armor in 3 categories which can overlap - Archaic (your standard RMU weapons and armor), Ballistic (solids propelled at high velocity), and Energy (lasers, plasma, blasters, etc.). Typically, weapons will only be of 1 category, but armors can have up to all three. If an armor doesn't protect against a type of attack then it is treated as AT1. For example, take a Kevlar vest, we'll call it AT6 and give it the Archaic and Ballistic categories. So against Archaic and Ballistic weapons it is AT6 but against Energy weapons it's AT1. Similarly, an ablative vest is AT6 Energy so it provides AT6 vs all Energy attacks but is AT1 versus Archaic and Ballistic. Lastly your knightly Plate is AT10 Archaic providing great protection vs Archaic weapons but AT1 vs Ballistic & Energy.

I think I personally would go another way: use the inherent mechanic of size increases/decreases in RMU to represent tech levels. So, your medieval style scale armor remains AT 7 vs. medieval weapons and indeed against ballistic and energy weapons. But, attack with ballistic weapons are increased one size (effectively +1.5 hits and +1 crit severity), while attacks with energy weapons are increased two sizes (+2x hits and +2 crit severities). This allows you to always keep the AT the same, for ease of use.

[pantsorama]

Another thing plaguing me was how to handle the armor types vs different eras of weaponry. So full plate is AT10, but so is powered armor... vastly different levels of protection, though. How do you reflect that in the game? Give a big DB bonus to the powered armor? but then weapons specifically designed to defeat that armor, say like a plasma rifle, would need a compensatory boost to OB... can get very complicated very quickly and we don't want to go back to that. What I'm liking about RMU is the logical and streamlined way the system has been created.
Something I thought of was to classify weapons and armor in 3 categories which can overlap - Archaic (your standard RMU weapons and armor), Ballistic (solids propelled at high velocity), and Energy (lasers, plasma, blasters, etc.). Typically, weapons will only be of 1 category, but armors can have up to all three. If an armor doesn't protect against a type of attack then it is treated as AT1. For example, take a Kevlar vest, we'll call it AT6 and give it the Archaic and Ballistic categories. So against Archaic and Ballistic weapons it is AT6 but against Energy weapons it's AT1. Similarly, an ablative vest is AT6 Energy so it provides AT6 vs all Energy attacks but is AT1 versus Archaic and Ballistic. Lastly your knightly Plate is AT10 Archaic providing great protection vs Archaic weapons but AT1 vs Ballistic & Energy.

You *could* do it that way, but I would think it is simpler to limit the archaic armors to maybe AT3 or 4 max and assign the SM ATs to the AT 10 scale in RMU. That way you can just use the attack tables in SM with little translation.  Not sure how to adjudicate stabbing a person in a ballistic vest...... Maybe translate an archaic weapons chart or two (Large archaic weapons, small archaic weapons, and archaic missile weapons?)

Alternatively, you might say Archaic weapons against Modern armor gets a size reduction, and Modern weapons against archaic armor gets a size boost.  Then adjust it accordingly.    So - and this is just spitballing here.  You might say if you shoot a person in plate armor with an MLA rifle it is considered a +2 size attack, whereas swing a sword at someone in power armor gets a size adjustment of -3.  I like this because you can more easily port in animals from RMU and not have to worry too much about how to translate a Bugblatter beast trying to chew through your space marine, or when the space marine in return lights it up with a Blaster.

Where this idea breaks down is how do you resolve attacks against AT1 - No Armor is No Armor in RMU or SM.  Maybe just use the AT1 associated with the weapon getting used.  (ie use RMU charts AT1 column when you get hit by a sword wielding barbarian, and SM charts AT1 column when someone is shooting a plasma rifle)

[pantsorama]

Another thing plaguing me was how to handle the armor types vs different eras of weaponry. So full plate is AT10, but so is powered armor... vastly different levels of protection, though. How do you reflect that in the game? Give a big DB bonus to the powered armor? but then weapons specifically designed to defeat that armor, say like a plasma rifle, would need a compensatory boost to OB... can get very complicated very quickly and we don't want to go back to that. 

Yes, that's the problem. SM2 didn't really deal all that effectively with it iirc, and while SM:P did address it more directly, it came at the cost of more complicated charts. So I'm hoping a SMU might be able to deal with it more elegantly.

What I'm liking about RMU is the logical and streamlined way the system has been created.
Something I thought of was to classify weapons and armor in 3 categories which can overlap - Archaic (your standard RMU weapons and armor), Ballistic (solids propelled at high velocity), and Energy (lasers, plasma, blasters, etc.). Typically, weapons will only be of 1 category, but armors can have up to all three. If an armor doesn't protect against a type of attack then it is treated as AT1. For example, take a Kevlar vest, we'll call it AT6 and give it the Archaic and Ballistic categories. So against Archaic and Ballistic weapons it is AT6 but against Energy weapons it's AT1. Similarly, an ablative vest is AT6 Energy so it provides AT6 vs all Energy attacks but is AT1 versus Archaic and Ballistic. Lastly your knightly Plate is AT10 Archaic providing great protection vs Archaic weapons but AT1 vs Ballistic & Energy.

I think I personally would go another way: use the inherent mechanic of size increases/decreases in RMU to represent tech levels. So, your medieval style scale armor remains AT 7 vs. medieval weapons and indeed against ballistic and energy weapons. But, attack with ballistic weapons are increased one size (effectively +1.5 hits and +1 crit severity), while attacks with energy weapons are increased two sizes (+2x hits and +2 crit severities). This allows you to always keep the AT the same, for ease of use.

Great minds, and all that.

[Grimsouled]

I think I personally would go another way: use the inherent mechanic of size increases/decreases in RMU to represent tech levels. So, your medieval style scale armor remains AT 7 vs. medieval weapons and indeed against ballistic and energy weapons. But, attack with ballistic weapons are increased one size (effectively +1.5 hits and +1 crit severity), while attacks with energy weapons are increased two sizes (+2x hits and +2 crit severities). This allows you to always keep the AT the same, for ease of use.

I had thought of something like that as well, but then I realized that by doing so you actually penalize people for wearing armor as opposed to just being AT1. Using the Long Bow chart with Small as Archaic, Medium as Ballistic, and Big as Energy; we'll use the 120 result. Comparing AT1 to AT7 on with Archaic gives you 13BP vs 10AP, a clear advantage to wearing armor. If the same person is shot with a handgun you would increase the size by 1 on the AT7 but not on the AT1 giving us 13BP on the AT1 and a 13BP on the AT7, literally a wash at this point. Same instance but with a laser pistol, still 13BP on the AT1, but now we are doing 20CP on the AT7, a clear penalty to be wearing that AT7 Archaic!
I had also thought of lowering the AT of armor vs certain weapons (Plate AT10 is AT5 vs Ballistic attacks) but didn't want to over complicate things.

[Grimsouled]

Alternatively, you might say Archaic weapons against Modern armor gets a size reduction, and Modern weapons against archaic armor gets a size boost.  Then adjust it accordingly.    So - and this is just spitballing here.  You might say if you shoot a person in plate armor with an MLA rifle it is considered a +2 size attack, whereas swing a sword at someone in power armor gets a size adjustment of -3.  I like this because you can more easily port in animals from RMU and not have to worry too much about how to translate a Bugblatter beast trying to chew through your space marine, or when the space marine in return lights it up with a Blaster.

I was trying to think of a way to compensate for an Archaic weapon attacking a high tech armor. I like the size reduction on the archaic weapon... and when making up the armor you could assign a reduction value to vary the armors. Like the power armor has Archaic(3) meaning any attacks with an Archaic weapon suffer a size adjustment of -3... hmmm, could even apply that to all eras so a powerful suit of advanced armor could have Archaic(3), Ballistic(2), and Energy(1), reducing the size of all attacks to a lesser or greater degree...

[Hurin]

I think I personally would go another way: use the inherent mechanic of size increases/decreases in RMU to represent tech levels. So, your medieval style scale armor remains AT 7 vs. medieval weapons and indeed against ballistic and energy weapons. But, attack with ballistic weapons are increased one size (effectively +1.5 hits and +1 crit severity), while attacks with energy weapons are increased two sizes (+2x hits and +2 crit severities). This allows you to always keep the AT the same, for ease of use.

I had thought of something like that as well, but then I realized that by doing so you actually penalize people for wearing armor as opposed to just being AT1. Using the Long Bow chart with Small as Archaic, Medium as Ballistic, and Big as Energy; we'll use the 120 result. Comparing AT1 to AT7 on with Archaic gives you 13BP vs 10AP, a clear advantage to wearing armor. If the same person is shot with a handgun you would increase the size by 1 on the AT7 but not on the AT1 giving us 13BP on the AT1 and a 13BP on the AT7, literally a wash at this point. Same instance but with a laser pistol, still 13BP on the AT1, but now we are doing 20CP on the AT7, a clear penalty to be wearing that AT7 Archaic!
I had also thought of lowering the AT of armor vs certain weapons (Plate AT10 is AT5 vs Ballistic attacks) but didn't want to over complicate things.

Yes, I see what you mean.

How about saying that AT 1 is always treated as archaic?

[Grimsouled]

How about saying that AT 1 is always treated as archaic?

Sorry, I'm not understanding what you mean by this... AT1 is everything. Naked is naked, don't matter what era you live in 

[Hurin]

How about saying that AT 1 is always treated as archaic?

Sorry, I'm not understanding what you mean by this... AT1 is everything. Naked is naked, don't matter what era you live in 

What I'm saying is, what if you said that Ballistic and Energy weapons always got their size bonus against AT 1, seeing as that is completely unarmored and is the same AT regardless of tech level? Then your attack on AT 1 with your handgun is going to be raised one size level, and your attack on AT 1 with your laser pistol is going to be raised 2 levels, ensuring that armor is never a detriment and AT 1 is never better than heavier armors.

Another way of saying it is that AT 1 is always treated as Archaic.

[Grimsouled]

What I'm saying is, what if you said that Ballistic and Energy weapons always got their size bonus against AT 1, seeing as that is completely unarmored and is the same AT regardless of tech level? Then your attack on AT 1 with your handgun is going to be raised one size level, and your attack on AT 1 with your laser pistol is going to be raised 2 levels, ensuring that armor is never a detriment and AT 1 is never better than heavier armors.

Another way of saying it is that AT 1 is always treated as Archaic.

Ah, gotcha. Could work and would be simple but then you would be saying that all ballistic weapons are better than the comparable archaic and all energy weapons are better than comparable ballistic weapons. So a laser pistol is always better then a MLA/Gauss pistol. I'm not 100% on board with that.
Additionally, it's saying that your archaic armor will always be effective against high tech weapons, albeit at a diminished capacity. Looking at AT10, the difference between getting shot with a small Long bow (120 result) and a laser pistol would only be 7 hits. Unfortunately, that wasn't what happened IRL. Once ballistic weapons were introduced widely, you saw an almost total disappearance of archaic armor.
Also, there would be a huge jump between AT1 and AT2 or better against energy weapons. Using my above example (120 on Long Bow chart), an energy pistol would do 13BP against someone with AT2 Energy armor, but 26DP against an unarmored AT1 target. I'm not totally against that (ie, only desperate/stupid people get into a firefight without any armor)...