Topic: Creature Size

[dagorhir]

What are the sizes in inches for each of the size categories used in Harp (i.e. Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge)?

[Thom @ ICE]

Working from memory on this... files are at home

Size ranges depend upon movement types.
Biped size is determined by their shoulder height in terms of feet.
0-0.75 = Miniscule
0.75-1.5 = Tiny
1.5-3.0 = Small
3.0-6.0 = Medium
6.0-12.0 = Large
12.0-24.0 = Huge
24.0+ = Gigantic

Quadruped are measured in shoulder height with a bottom range of 0-0.5 (then double up from there)
Multilegged are measured in shoulder height with a bottom range of 0-0.25 (then double up from there)
Flyers are measured in wingspan with a bottom range of 0-0.5
Swimmers are measured in body length with a bottom range of 0-0.75

[dagorhir]

I find starting Large biped creatures at 6' a little small, considering Gryx Male have an average height of 6'. Are they Large creatures?
I have been using this since RM:
<18" Tiny
18" to 42" Small
42" to 92" Medium
92" to 168" Large
168"+ Huge

[pyrotech]

I would say if you are going by shoulder height then a Gryx would need to be pretty big for the race to be considered a large creature.  Shoulder to head height for most bipedal/semi-bipedal animals seems to be about 1/7th total height.

So going by total height that would be 7 feet tall humanoids start at the large scale.  That may still be a little small for the bonus in abuse a large creature can take - but not too far off base in my opinion.

-Pyrotech

[dagorhir]

For me where size becomes important is to determine how the characters use different weapon types. Small creatures would most certainly not use a broadsword one-handed. The weapon is the same size as they are, so they would use it two-handed as a great blade.

I've decided that Halflings and Gnomes should be small creatures measuring near 3' in height. All other PC races are medium. Gryx can reach 6'10" in height, so that should still be considered medium.

The Giantism talent increases a character's height by 1.5. So at which height do they become a large creature? Even with this talent Halfings and Gnomes would never be large size.

I should also mention that in my campaign world, Halflings and Gnomes are shorter than the Harp core book races, being 2'8" and 3' respectively.
 

[Thom @ ICE]

Pyrotech has the basics of it.
The concept used should put the standard races all in the Medium range as a norm.
If you use races that push outside the medium size....
Large gets +5 to ST, -1 to QU, -5 to Stalking and 150% base Endurance
Small gets +5 to QU, -1 to ST, +5 to Stalking and 75% base Endurance
(Cost is 10DP for either of these)

As sizes grow (shrink) the costs go up and the modifiers go up - but the impact is in these same areas.

I understand your comments about size impacting weapons, but I normally cover that with roleplaying. Feel free to establish min size requirements for using various weapons (and when 2H weapons become 1H).

[jdale]

I wouldn't change the size class for Giantism, regardless of the height. Giantism has a defined cost and effect (+5 Strength bonus). If it also increased the size class for some characters but not for others, it wouldn't make sense for it to have the same cost in both cases.

This does mean that you shouldn't think of size as an exact cutoff on an individual basis, where e.g. a 7' character is medium and a 7'1" character is suddenly large. Think of it as a racial trait based on the norm.

[dagorhir]

I understand your comments about size impacting weapons, but I normally cover that with roleplaying. Feel free to establish min size requirements for using various weapons (and when 2H weapons become 1H).

To determine if a a weapon is one-handed or two-handed I was use the following general rule:
One-handed weapon has a length of up to the hip of the character, while two-handed weapons have a length greater than the character's hip.
I have the following exceptions:
All missile weapons require two hands to operated, no matter the size.
Pole weapons that can be thrown can also be used one-handed but at one attack size lower than normal. (i.e. Spear is a Large Puncture when two-handed and Medium Puncture when one-handed).

Also Short Blades are equal or less than the length of the characters.

This also affects which skill is used for a bladed weapon. A human would use a broadsword within the Long Blades skill group, while a Halfling would use the Great Blades skill group. A human would use the Short Blades skill group for a dagger, but for a Halfling that would be the Long Blades since the dagger is much closer to a sword for him. So Halflings do not have Short Blades weapons unless the get undersized daggers (Tiny Slash)

I would like to use size to simply this. Perhaps the character's size could be treated as an attribute rather than a racial trait and still have the Large/Small Size talents.

[GrumpyOldFart]

One-handed weapon has a length of up to the hip of the character, while two-handed weapons have a length greater than the character's hip.
I have the following exceptions:

I like it, but personally I'd make a slight tweak: Weapons whose length is between crotch/mid-thigh length and waist length may be used as "bastard" weapons if it allows for a 2 handed grip.

[dagorhir]

One-handed weapon has a length of up to the hip of the character, while two-handed weapons have a length greater than the character's hip.
I have the following exceptions:

I like it, but personally I'd make a slight tweak: Weapons whose length is between crotch/mid-thigh length and waist length may be used as "bastard" weapons if it allows for a 2 handed grip.

Those weapons length fall just above the hip around the waist. Very few weapons fall into that length range: the Bastard Sword, the Bastard Axe, the Claymore, the Katana and the Long Sword. These are what I call intermediate weapons because they fall between medium and large weapons.

[dagorhir]

What boggles my mind is how an 3' Halfling can be considered the same size as a 6' Gryx (both Medium) and a Gryx with the Giantism talent, 9', is roughly the same height as an Ogre but not the same size (Medium vs Large).

I know the Ogre has the talent Enlarge to make it a Large creature and that makes perfect sense. It's the character races that are inconsistent with the creatures. 

Also:
Is a buckler used by a Halfling provide any sort of protection if it is used by a Human?

[Thom @ ICE]

I would personally like to replace Giantism (that is under talents) with Giantism from the Monster abilities list and also include Shrink similarly (Or at the very least dump the Giantism that is listed under the talents)

If that were done you could then modify the halfling so that they were treated as having Shrink (Minor) as a racial ability, and Gryx as having a Giantism (Minor).

Unfortunately that would significantly impact the balance for the Races.

[dagorhir]

I would personally like to replace Giantism (that is under talents) with Giantism from the Monster abilities list and also include Shrink similarly (Or at the very least dump the Giantism that is listed under the talents)

If that were done you could then modify the halfling so that they were treated as having Shrink (Minor) as a racial ability, and Gryx as having a Giantism (Minor).

Unfortunately that would significantly impact the balance for the Races.

I was think something on those lines also, but as you pointed out it would significantly impact the balance. Since I don't have all the information I'm not in the position to determine that impact and how to re-balance it all.

Technically, I have two races that would be small, Halfling and Gnome, and all the others are medium unless they purchase a talent to increase their size.

Similarly, I would also add Shrink the Kobolds since these are suppose to small creatures. But again, some re-balancing would be required. I hope the new Bestiary will shed some light on this one.

I certainly be nice to have RMU-like rules using DPs to create balanced races.