Forum > HARP
Magician spell learning
craig:
--- Quote from: Zhaleskra on August 24, 2022, 05:52:05 PM ---I had considered having a separate version of each spell per Circle or Sphere, and then I realized from a programming perspective that's too much coding, and from an "in universe" perspective it's all the same spell. One doesn't even need to multi-class with Arcane Circle and Arcane Power Talents.
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It annoys the hell out of me the HARP already has multiple copies of some spells with different names. e.g. Mage Armor, Steel Skin, Tree Skin, etc are all the same spell.
--- Quote ---So again, unless we do something like make Mages/Magicians have a Base Spell list like Clerics, I see no mechanical way to limit them to 40 spells. Though I do understand the design idea of not having a "laundry list" of spells.
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I don't see the problem. 25 DP is a pretty steep price to pay, it's half a level's worth of DP. 25 DP that can't be spent on other spells/skills/talents because it's been spent on Arcane Circle, and it doesn't actually give any skill ranks in any spells, it just allows them to spend even more DP on a new set of spells. HARP doesn't really prevent characters from learning whatever their player wants, it just assigns a cost to it....and if they pay that cost, they should get what they pay for.
And, of course, if you don't want it in your game, then just remove the talent. Or put an in-world barrier in front of it, like requiring some sort of challenge or quest for the PC to prove themselves to the only person/school who can teach the Circle/Sphere to them: "To learn Necromancy you must find and enter the Lich's tomb and retrieve the Crown of the Undying King. Beware! the Lich may be long gone(*) but the tomb is sure to be guarded".
The rules recommend that purchasing talents should be subject to GM approval anyway.
(*) surprise! he's not!
Zhaleskra:
--- Quote from: craig on August 25, 2022, 11:09:01 AM ---
It annoys the hell out of me the HARP already has multiple copies of some spells with different names. e.g. Mage Armor, Steel Skin, Tree Skin, etc are all the same spell.
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I do treat the various Armor spells as the same spell for the purposes of programing. All that really changes is the "skin". Just like I use a single UserForm for all 9 of the SF Fusion professions.
--- Quote ---I don't see the problem. 25 DP is a pretty steep price to pay, it's half a level's worth of DP. 25 DP that can't be spent on other spells/skills/talents because it's been spent on Arcane Circle, and it doesn't actually give any skill ranks in any spells, it just allows them to spend even more DP on a new set of spells. HARP doesn't really prevent characters from learning whatever their player wants, it just assigns a cost to it....and if they pay that cost, they should get what they pay for.
And, of course, if you don't want it in your game, then just remove the talent. Or put an in-world barrier in front of it, like requiring some sort of challenge or quest for the PC to prove themselves to the only person/school who can teach the Circle/Sphere to them: "To learn Necromancy you must find and enter the Lich's tomb and retrieve the Crown of the Undying King. Beware! the Lich may be long gone(*) but the tomb is sure to be guarded".
The rules recommend that purchasing talents should be subject to GM approval anyway.
(*) surprise! he's not!
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There's also the fact, that with overlap in the Mage/Magician and Elementalist spell lists, Arcane Circle would mostly be used for Necromancy, Thaumaturgy, or Vivamancy. Even then you have some overlap in those spell lists!
Zhaleskra:
How useful having around 20 ranks in a spell is depends on both the character and the spell. I'm playing a sailor who's going into elementalism. Scaling up Breezes would be helpful for sailing on days with no wind or light wind. Sure, she'd have to stand near a sail to make it useful for sailing. Holy Symbol and Magestaff are both good choices for dedicated casters.
craig:
--- Quote from: Zhaleskra on September 08, 2022, 08:28:51 AM ---How useful having around 20 ranks in a spell is depends on both the character and the spell. I'm playing a sailor who's going into elementalism. Scaling up Breezes would be helpful for sailing on days with no wind or light wind. Sure, she'd have to stand near a sail to make it useful for sailing. Holy Symbol and Magestaff are both good choices for dedicated casters.
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True, value can be subjective and situational.
Study Target is another spell where another rank is always useful - although in my versions of spells which use stored "templates", they all require a Store/Recall 20 point aspect and each has their own collection of templates, e.g. a location learnt only for Scrying can't be used for Long Door. Study Target is still required to learn a template - e.g. a location or a creature - and also provides generic storage which any such spell can use. I have written spells for copying stored templates between spells, or even between characters, and also to crystals or runes for "off-line storage" or sharing with others...and, combined with Runes and a relevant art/craft skill, even for making paintings or tarot cards for communication or portals like in Zelazny's Amber series.
Long Door also benefits a lot from more ranks. And spells like Potion Mastery, Rune Mastery, and the Thaumaturge's Imbue Bonus/Charge/Exotic/Spell spells.
Zhaleskra:
--- Quote from: craig on August 07, 2022, 08:17:41 AM ---Of course, with Rules-As-Written (RAW), they can only develop spells in a Sphere or Circle when they are levelling the profession associated with it.
Personally, I think that's a silly restriction (and, worse, adds tedious book-keeping) - once you know something, you don't magically "un-know" it just because you're focusing on a different profession for a while, but if you're currently levelling a class that doesn't have Mystical Arts as Favoured, then you pay 4 DP per rank, same as you would for any other unfavoured skill (increasing Mage or some other class without Combat as favoured doesn't prevent you from learning Combat skills, it just doubles the DP cost. I don't see any reason why that should be different for spells). Which makes Rogue even more appealing as a second profession for any spell-casting class (in fact, a Rogue can make a great caster if they're willing to spend the DP on Arcane Power/Arcane Circle and maybe a few other talents like Sense Magic).
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Pretty sure the idea is to focus on the Profession you just took a level in. That said, there are many ways around it, up to and including "hand waving". You're not unlearning it, you're just not focusing on that profession right now. After all, your skill ranks don't disappear when you take a different profession.
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