Forum > Rolemaster
TWC and full parry
Marc R:
The posting over here:
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=10620.msg134593#msg134593
Got me thinking on this.
Assuming you have +50 in both weapons and TWC, but a magical Broadsword +20 and a magical dagger +10. . .
It's easy if you still attack. . .like you OB/DB for 20/30:
+30 DB, not doubled, counted once for both weapons.
20 (skill) + 20 (magic) = 40 OB Broadsword.
20 (skill) + 10 (magic) - 20 (off hand) = 10 OB dagger.
But, two oddities pop up
First, if you go full parry, and get the "Shield Bonus" for the weapons, does the -20 off hand penalty from the dagger preclude you from going more than 30 DB for "full parry"?
Second, if you go full parry for the shield bonus. . .do you get +5 for the sword, and +5 for the dagger for +10, or is the +5 added to both weapons giving you +55 and +35, before the "not doubled, counted once for both weapons" is applied, giving you just the +55?
markc:
IMHO the +5 goes into the total before you split it off. So full parry 50 in TWC, 50 in both weapons no ambidexterity. No natural DB of any kind.
Note: More ranks in off hand weapon to bring up its skill score to 50. The -20 off hand mod is applied to the skill so you do not have to remember it when in the middle of the game.
1) OB to work with is 50
2) Decide to go full DB now OB/DB is 0/55
3) Attack with weapon in primary hand is 0 attack with the weapon in the secondary hand is 0.
In the above example you are using the swords magic as offense only. I thought it was ruled that the material mods, magic mods and quality mods could be used as OB or DB?
If so then sword OB is 50+20= 70, dagger is 50+10=60
Q1) The TWC skill is IMHO where the problem is, is does it get a bonus from the weapons material or magical mods.
Proposed Answer: IMHO the TWC skill would get the lower of the two if at all. In my game in the past I have not provided any bonus to the TWC skill for material, magical or quality bonus's. So I guess my answer is 50 for TWC skill +10 as the lowest of the two bonus's for 60 OB for both weapons.
One point that was brought up in the past was that TWC should change as per the rules in the CC. IMHO this is a good decision to make, and deciding on if TWC allows an attack to be more damaging or two actual attacks at a penalty. Helps a lot in trying to solve the problem you are talking about.
MDC
rdanhenry:
Checking the description of TWC on p. 162 of RMSR, I am of the opinion that the -20 does not apply, since the skill already assumes the existence of a style where one weapon is used "normally" in the off-hand. You get the off-hand penalty if you switch the hands you use the weapons in... rapier/short sword versus short sword/rapier. The penalty for off-hand use appear on p. 96 under "One-Handed Weapons" where it talks about use of a single weapon, but does not appear on the same page under "Two One-handed Weapons". The specific rule on p.162 is that "The OB for each weapon attack is equal to the skill bonus for the Two Weapon Fighting skill for the combination of those two weapons." (emphasis added)
rdanhenry:
Note that TWC is capped by skill ranks in the weapons, not skill bonus as some posts have seemed to imply. Also, it uses different stats than weapon skills, so it is possible someone could have a better OB with TWC than with either weapon alone. (I do not think this is unrealistic.) This is really the only case where full parry TWC represents an advantage. Otherwise, one would full parry with the higher single-weapon OB and use the second weapon as a "shield".
This is for RMSS. The situation with RM2 was not so clear when it came to two-weapon fighting.
Marc R:
I just stated that by some happenstance all applicable skills were equal to avoid that entering the equation.
I think the off hand penalty still does apply to the off hand in TWC RMC, but I'll need to check the RMSS references. You are indeed correct, if the dagger is trained in the off hand in RMSS it gets no penalty, unless used in the primary hand, it specifically says so on p162.
Good catch on the magical bonuses MarkC, yes, that was off in the 2nd example, so it should be:
--- Quote ---First, if you go full parry, and get the "Shield Bonus" for the weapons, does the -20 off hand penalty from the dagger preclude you from going more than 40 DB for "full parry"?
Second, if you go full parry for the shield bonus. . .do you get +5 for the sword, and +5 for the dagger for +10, or is the +5 added to both weapons giving you +75 and +45, before the "not doubled, counted once for both weapons" is applied, giving you just the +75?
--- End quote ---
I'm a little iffy on your answer Markc, if only because if there were two attackers, and you designated one weapon to parry each of them, you would be:
RMC +75 (sword) vs one, and +45 (dagger) vs the other at full parry, so even if the TWC "parry overlap on one foe" applied, it'd still be at least the +75 for the sword.
in RMSS it would be +55 (sword) and +45 (dagger) for engaging two foes.
The reason I ask about it perhaps being +80, is that if the person above were to go full parry with just the sword, they would get the shield bonus of the object in their off hand anyway. . .which would give +50 (sword skill) + 20 (magic) +5 (sword shield bonus) +5 (Dagger Shield bonus). . .which makes it strange that it would be worse in TWC than if using the sword solo with the dagger just offering the "passive off hand" shield bonus of +5. Per the note about passive shield bonus from the off hand, +80 is indeed what you'd get from the RMSS version vs one attacker, since the dagger bonus is lower, or you could choose to get +75 in exchange for rolling two +0 attacks.
Although, it might not actually work that way. . .since you're not allowed to devote negative OB to an attack in split, in RMSS TWC vs one attacker trying for full defense with the above numbers, you might get stuck with:
70 (total bonus) Sword 10/60 split, not full parry, no shield bonus +10 OB attack.
60 (total bonus) dagger 10/60 split, full parry +5 shield bonus +0 OB attack.
65 DB from the higher dagger value.
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