Topic: Walls (Barrier Law etc)

[Moostik]

This issue have been raised a few times in my GM career, and I would like other GM's opinion on the matter;

What happens when a Wall spell's duration ends?
For some walls, this is obvious; a fire wall simply stops burning, an air wall just gets less dense, light walls will cease to exist, etc.

What about Woodwall? Earthwall? are they permanent until natural erosion or violence destroy them, or are they magically disintegrated? If so, are they really just materialized illusions? If they crumble to smithereens, would there be piles of matchsticks or earth lying around afterwards?

I tend to rule that what was a magical wooden wall is now a very unstable non-magical wooden wall. More like a pile of boards, really. The magical "glue" is gone, and there are no spikes or bolts holding it together. But then the group could decide to use the spell to create material for a raft. Or a shelter. Or whatever they can imagine. And then there's stonewalls.

I realize there are higher level, permanent versions of these, I just want an opinion on the fixed duration ones.

[yammahoper]

With various possible special effects, they disappear the same as they appeared.  I tend to prefer sparkling lights and some noise.

[Moostik]

A valid option, for sure. I might even throw in a choir of angels for the channeling list. But the magical disappearance of a wall just like that would actually be a powerful magical effect in itself, thus the question remains; what is the point of having the wall disintegrated? In my opinion, this implies the wall  is of an illusionary nature, or carved from pure mana - or made from elemental fabric uncontainable by this world. Which is fine, if you think the actual creation of any common material should be more demanding in pure essence than any of the above.

If you use Fire and Ice (the book), the same question arise from the "Boulder" spell - that boulder, can we re-use it as catapult ammo?

[Moostik]

Some of my players tried to walk over their own illusionary bridge once, having added the illusion of touch to it. Didn't work out.

[markc]

I rule that the walls come from the elements around them and when they disappear they go back to where they came from.
MDC

[yammahoper]

Everything has a pattern, and for a brief time, a spell user can weave even complex patterns such as stone or (dead) wood.  Or ice.  Or light.  Et al.  The lower level weaves, or spells if you prefer, require concentration to maintain.  At higher levels, the weave is stable for a short time.  At the highest levels of power, the weave is permanent and the object quite real at all levels of power.

 It's powerful magic.  One pp of magic is enough to kill any caster, even vaporize them with arcane fumbles.  A big penalty to activity and no prep, oh yeah, I've seen it happen.

So the wood wall crumbles loudly with cracks of light, turns to sparkles and fades away.  Or not.   

[rdanhenry]

If you allow the non-permanent versions to create material for further use, you take away the main advantage of the permanent versions. This is a very powerful ability.

[Cory Magel]

Since the wall magically appears I say it just magically disappears in reverse manner it formed.  You get to decide if that's sparkling lights, something that looks like a slowly coalescing barrier out of thin air, or just POOF! it's there and POOF! it's gone.

[Turbs]

i have to agree. magical. appearance, magical dissapearance.

If you create a stone wall.. where did those stones come from?
I tend to let my imagination go and say that they were summoned up from the earth beneath the caster, therefore when the spell times out, the stones return to where they came from returning to their underground domain

wood walls would creak, ccrumple, topple snap then finally collapse into a huge pile of sawdust that blows off in the wind.

easier for water walls and ice walls..they simply slosh back into the ground or melt back into the ground.

etc etc

[Moostik]

I rule that the walls come from the elements around them and when they disappear they go back to where they came from.
MDC

I like this approach. The elements are "borrowed", not created, as such. And I always describe the sounds and visual effects if detail, although they may vary, even for the same spell from the same list.

[yammahoper]

Water Wall is particularly easily abused.  Traveling across a great waste is much easier if allowed to drink from a Water Wall.  If the water returns to the elemental plane of water, I have used the Ethereal Mastery spell list as a guide as far as chance of being transported WITH the water rather than chance of random summoning/encounter (15%).  Regardless, no benefits for hydration are gained.

[markc]

 I do not allow drinking from a water wall, IMHO it is not possible as you take elemental damage or I woulr rule your body would not get the benefits of water from the water wall.
 Just my 2 cents

MDC

[Marrethiel]

We tend to view it as the elements are gated in from another plane. Thus the spell matrix fading at the end of the duration or the permanent spell being dispelled sends it back to the original source.
So we specifically don't even let the higher level spells be used as a replacement for hard graft of cutting stones and moving them across country. Who would want to make a castle that could be disjuncted?

Interestingly we came to this reasoning based on the duration "permanent" not "-".
This has some interesting implications when you consider healing...

There are other ways around this though. Magical "Stone Smiths" use things like Stone to Mud, add water to make a slurry and pour into a mould. Dispell Essence when you are ready and hey presto a non magic stone wall in any shape you like. This is especially useful if your construction mage has spell mastered force fields to make truly esoteric buildings.
Sorry, a little off topic!

[Moostik]

Water Wall is particularly easily abused.  Traveling across a great waste is much easier if allowed to drink from a Water Wall.  If the water returns to the elemental plane of water, I have used the Ethereal Mastery spell list as a guide as far as chance of being transported WITH the water rather than chance of random summoning/encounter (15%).  Regardless, no benefits for hydration are gained.

All you need for some real, permanent drinking water is a first level magician with a rank I water law.... so I don't really see the extreme abuse factor for a whole wall of water. These spells explicitly mention the need for a material component for casting, is it 1cu'? Not half as useful in a desert as Condensation. You could however cast a Condensation spell in order to GET the material requirement for a Water Wall in case you need to quench the thirst of an army. I don't see the likelihood of this ever happening in any of my campaigns, but interesting dilemma still.

But anyway, following the "borrowed element" theory; if a wall of ice were created in a cold climate, on top of an unsuspecting, perhaps poorly dressed, crew of enemies, this could make them very wet, and they could suffer from loss of body heat- however, once the spell's duration ends -they would be as dry as they were before the spell were cast.

For me, this is a new way of handling some of the spells in a few lists, although a fun one.

[Moostik]

And I don't see permanent spells as constant spell effects, either. I wouldn't allow dispelling a permanent stone wall out of existence. In that case, you could easily dispel the effects of any healing spell as well. Makes Dispel spells way too powerful. You could dispel the effects of a Symbol or other triggered effect, but there is a reason why there is no permanent Fire Walls. A stone wall wouldn't demand any constant upkeep of essence. It can be toppled, destroyed, whatever, like the spell description says, so there is no permanently working spell in play.

Constant effects like items are a whole different topic, however.

[Turbs]

I also play that the element is drawn from the surroundings.

I.e. water wall gets drawn from teh surrounding moisture. you are in a desert you say?
well the closest large source of moisture happens to be yourself.. guess the caster is in for some serious dehydration effects.

[Marrethiel]

I also play that the element is drawn from the surroundings.

I.e. water wall gets drawn from teh surrounding moisture. you are in a desert you say?
well the closest large source of moisture happens to be yourself.. guess the caster is in for some serious dehydration effects.

Could this then be used offensively? Cast it 100' away near a group of orcs?
How would a wall of iron work? Could you cast that near the orcs and have their weapons consumed, then maybe the iron in their blood too?
I think we "power game" too much

I guess this is why we have the element gated in. Just recently this came up in game and the GM made a new ruling (for this campaign) that a perminant wall looses its magical integrity but the no longer stable material still exists (I mentioned this thread and we discussed it at lenght). You are expending energy to summon the wall but upon dispelling or duration expiry there is no corresponding magical effect to send the material back.

[jdale]

For the setting I am working on now, which has different underlying magical principles than RM, all walls are made from available materials. E.g. if you want a wall of water, you need a nearby lake, river, or well. Walls of earth are pretty easy most places, unless you are in a stone building. Etc. But, walls of earth and stone are stable so the duration is permanent (walls of water, not so much). I am sure the players will do their best to take advantage of this.

Still, these are not type F spells, so they are not going to work directly as attacks to take material away from enemy's bodies or equipment. There are other spells for that.

[Moostik]

In my own opinion, at least for my own campaign;
Since a little bit of material (1cu' or so) nearby is required to make a full wall (it says so in the spell list notes), I envision the walls as magically multiplied/expanded/photocopied material. The walls would then shrink back to their original size and form at the end of duration, or not, if the walls are permanent. This wouldn't require all of the orcs armor or weapons, but perhaps one piece of armor. And even then, it shouldn't be "ripped through his flesh", just possibly removed from him (it disappears), or perhaps not even removed, as the list's notes seem to require the material component not as material for a wall, but as inspiration, so to speak.

Most GMs seem to follow the notion that no magic can really create something really real, but I fail to see that sentiment reflected in the system. It is interesting to see everyones take on these spells.

[tarax]

Some what related, had a player who was flying over a battle field (ring of flying) and had the bright idea of casting obsidian wall (15^th level on dark law)  there was a discussion about the other wall spells all said they needed to be based on something, this one did not state that, so it was allowed, but very difficult to aim when dropping them.
My thought here though is that the 'obsidian' is solidified darkness and shadow, that fades on the time limit of the spell.