Topic: Dark Sun, Revisited.

[PiXeL01]

I wrote the 8 page version of the Dark Sun conversion ages ago, but now I have finally gotten back to revisit and revise it.

Note it’s still very much WIP with much of Rolemaster and the Dark Sun setting to consider.

Link to Live Document - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1o3S2cIUswlxV3P0JrCh8WI8JvaQI1Ev1pdqa8nvCvno/edit

Changes from the first release:
- Psionics have changed a little
- added some weapons
- changed material bonuses, bone and stone is now 0 while iron is +10
- Professions revised a little
- Races revised a little
- Natural Psionic Power Points as for RMC optional rule
- optional usage of Fire and Ice for Clerics

Things to do:
- shipping list
- treasure list
- armors
- Psionic disciplines needs to be reconsidered
- monsters
- transformations to superior beings
- revised skill lists
- revised spell effects?
- Thri-Kreen Power Point regeneration

Considerations:
- Arcane lists being Psionic Enhancements, how many would be needed for transformation and at what level?
- Druid needs other elementals lists in addition to standard base lists?

Let me hear your ideas and critique

[RandalThor]

Let me hear your ideas and critique

OK.

Let me say this up front: Dark Sun is my favorite setting of all time.

I never did get a chance to play DS using RM rules, though I have wanted to for a long time. RM is just a better fit, IMO, for the setting, particularly its supposed deadliness which never seemed to make an appearance when playing it with D&D rules. (Yes, I know they were AD&D 2nd edition, but that was less deadly than AD&D 1e, as HP bloat started there.) All of that is just to say that I never got a chance to really dig into the rules you put together, though I assume they are based on RM 2nd edition, and I have a moderate grasp of those. (I am more familiar with RMSS/FRP.) So I just took a glance at them (not the ones you just did, so you might have addressed these, if so, ignore) and noticed a couple of things:

Defilers. These spellcasters have a reason they are defilers other than just being bad. Sort of like the Dark Magic in The Dragon Prince on Netflix - I highly recommend it, and never knew I wanted Scottish sounding elves until that show - and the Dark Side of The Force in Star Wars, it has an element of ease to it that is seductive. I did not see anything in them to note that using defiling makes casting spells easier/quicker, which it should. I don't think it needs to make learning spell lists easier, but utilizing defiling methods for spellcasting should make casting spells - and maybe overcasting - much faster. (Or possible, when talking about overcasting.) All the details of how much plant-life is destroyed is fine, though I would handwave it as a GM; too much trouble to bother with in game.

Psionics. I do not like these being handled like magic. Psionics should feel different, for the player, and not just be said to be different. I get that the whole "Mentalism" school looks like an easy route to take, I just don't think it is the right one for DS psionics. Instead I say look to how they are handled in Spacemaster: Privateers. I think that could be used better to model the whole "Wild Talent" thing, as well.

May I ask for more detail on what you mean by: "revised spell-effects?" Are you asking if we think some spell effects should be altered?

Edit: Just downloaded it and will take a look over the weekend.

[PiXeL01]

Thanks for the thoughts. I appreciate the feedback and would welcome more and better ideas. I chose RM2/c because that is the only RM I’ve played. I did own and ran Privateers, but only once. That is the reason behind making Psionics the new Mentalism but still slightly different. I did not want to expose my RM players of old to something completely alien. I will look into the Privateers psionic system if I can find my books. 

But in general I have been trying to stay true to the initial box set.

Defiler - I chose to reduce spell classes as a compromise for having them advance in level faster, which it appears you agree with except you are saying the deduction should also be applied when overcasting. As for the reason they are defining is they want power and do not care how to get it.
As for the radius of life being drained you’re it might not need a formula or table. I did think of saying a feet by lvl of spell, maybe half that in green areas.

As for spell effects I was thinking about water spells but maybe it’s not worth the trouble. ^^

[RandalThor]

Thanks for the thoughts. I appreciate the feedback and would welcome more and better ideas. I chose RM2/c because that is the only RM I’ve played. I did own and ran Privateers, but only once. That is the reason behind making Psionics the new Mentalism but still slightly different. I did not want to expose my RM players of old to something completely alien. I will look into the Privateers psionic system if I can find my books.

I can see that.

Defiler - I chose to reduce spell classes as a compromise for having them advance in level faster, which it appears you agree with except you are saying the deduction should also be applied when overcasting. As for the reason they are defining is they want power and do not care how to get it.

I guess I am far less familiar with RM2/C, but I don't know what you mean by "reduce spell classes." Never mind, found it. That basically does the same thing, makes it faster/easier to cast. That looks to be an elegant solution.

As for spell effects I was thinking about water spells but maybe it’s not worth the trouble. ^^

Water effects should definitely be lessened, water is a big thing for Dark Sun. Spells that create water should be, at the very least, increased in level dramatically. I would think that the lowest level water creation spell should be around 10th level, though I think really 15th or even 20th. Dark Sun is a tough and dangerous place and making it easier should not come quick or cheap. IMO. Or, instead of rearraigning the spell lists, just make all lists that deal with water classified as Restricted, and any spells on other lists that deal with water cost twice the PP. Something like that.

[PiXeL01]

As I was planning my next session I thought to allow Archmages into the setting, though not with access to all three realms, instead as the only Essence Psionicist of the setting. This fits the setting’s paths toward Dragon or Avangion and keeps Channeling exclusively Druids, Clerics, Templars, and Rangers.

Also, i was thinking to change the background option “Archmage Abilities” to “Character can choose base lists from two realms; either Essence/Psionic or Channeling/Psionics. Access to Channeling requires pact with an Element”.

Thoughts are welcome.

[pantsorama]

This is very cool

[RandalThor]

As I was planning my next session I thought to allow Archmages into the setting, though not with access to all three realms, instead as the only Essence Psionicist of the setting. This fits the setting’s paths toward Dragon or Avangion and keeps Channeling exclusively Druids, Clerics, Templars, and Rangers.

Also, i was thinking to change the background option “Archmage Abilities” to “Character can choose base lists from two realms; either Essence/Psionic or Channeling/Psionics. Access to Channeling requires pact with an Element”.

Thoughts are welcome.

Here are my thoughts on the Archmage/Avangion: Instead of it being a specific class/profession it could be more based on information/knowledge/learning. Something like needing a certain number of spell masteries at a certain rank opens up a new, Restricted skill, From there, the individual needs to gain X number of ranks to reach the different stages, and gain the powers and abilites therein. Rolemaster is not a game where people can switch professions, so by making Archmage it's own profession (or requiring them to have chosen a specific talent early on) means that they cannot later on try to go down the Dragon/Avangion path. One of the background parts of the Dark Sun setting was the templar that helped overthrow Kalak decided, later on, to try to become a Dragon himself. This implies that it is something that can be chosen later on, provided the person does certain things.

[PiXeL01]

Thank you for your insight.

And I agree, that it should be something available to anyone able to obtain the knowledge, much like Magedrake which depends on the number of Arcane Lists you know.

I’ll drop the idea of Archmages again, though keep my decision on the background option “Archmage Abilities” to show that some have a greater knack at combining the talents of Magic and Psionics.
The most obvious solution to the next question would that targets resist spells based on the realm of the list the spell is from.
Character already have two Power Point pools, one for their realm of caster and one for Psionic wild talents. Of course Psionic/mentalism users only have one until they learn a list from either Essence or Channeling

The RM realm of Arcane could be the Psionic Enhancements and would be the only source of hybrid magic. When casting one of these spells should power be drawn 50% from each pool or full amount from both pools?

[RandalThor]

I would think that Psionic/Mentalism users would also have two pools - until they learned to combine them. Learning an Essence or Channeling list just means they cast spells from the list using their normal pool of points.

As for the target's RR, that is a good question, and one I just now posed to the people on the ICE Discord server. I think that I always thought that one part of the increased DP cost was learning to "transfer" the spells into your source of power.

[PiXeL01]

Apologies, while I know it is not a solution you agree with currently Psionic = Mentalism until
I come up with a better system. That is why there’s only one pool of PP for them.

As for RRs that’s true. It could been seen as converting a spell list to your own realm so a spell cast by a magician is always Essence etc. in core.

[RandalThor]

So, it seems as though the spell list and not the caster determines what realm. (When a Mentalist casts a spell from an Essence list, it is resisted as Essence.) That is weird to me.

[PiXeL01]

Indeed, that would mean that Hybrids casting Open/closed spells has to declare to the GM the realm of the spell he is casting.

[PiXeL01]

But it’s true. I just checked Spell Law (RM2 8.3.2 p. 17) and it clarifies the issue that you resist the realm of the spell. Only hybrid base lists are resisted through the average.

[RandalThor]

To me that is a bit silly, but it isn't game breaking.

[Luxferre]

How far is your Dark Sun developed? I am very interested 🤩

[Tywyll]

So I really dig this! Well done, especially the wild-talents!

I do wish that you had included some method for higher than normal stats (considering humans could start with 20's in their stats if they were lucky...stuff that would easily equate to 102-104 in RM).

I'm also not 100% on the Defiler's just having spells reduced by 1 class as being 'enough' to represent the benefits of defiling. I guess because at high levels, the benefits kind of disappears. That said, it does fit the 'fiction' of what defiling is (faster, easier) better than just 'less xp'. Though perhaps in addition to the class reduction, maybe casing spells via defiling comes with a x2 xp mod? So 1st time you cast a new spell of your level, in a risky situation, for the fist time (x5) via defiling (x2) could net a defiler 1000xp vs the 500 the perserver earns.

[EltonJ]

Hmm. I liked the conversion myself.

[PiXeL01]

I’m afraid the two campaigns I started did not last too long mainly due to the pandemic. If others are willing to contribute I’m happy to let them.

I were looking for alternates to Mentalism just being Psionicist powers though it was the easiest solution. Psionics from Space Master simply does not have enough lists …

I did keep Arxh Mage abilities as Psionics + either essence or channeling though I did keep Arvhmages out of it.

[PiXeL01]

The above link is still live though if unviewable I’ll add a PDF.

Defilers - I do not use the standard RM xp system so that solution did not come to mind. Interesting though. Another idea is to let ranks developed in spell lists count 25 to 50 per cent more. Maybe +50% rank 1-10, 25% 11-15. At 15 it’s automatic.
A better solution might be a flat 5 rank bonus.
 That would also help towards gaining power quicker.

Higher stat value (not balanced) - raise all potentials by 5-10.

In my campaigns though your potentials can go up if you roll open ended on a stat gain for attributes with temporary values at max already.

[EltonJ]

I wonder how you do Avangions and Dragons.