Topic: remove the ranks/lvl limit for sub-skills

[Dark Schneider]

First, sub-skills are those one that can be used by itself, I'll use the 'spell mastery' as example, you can't use it because is a sub-skill of spells, so without spells is useless.

The, why remove the limit?, the simple explanation is allow to use it from first level, if not, we can't use it really until medium-high level, but then we have the high level version of spells...an example:

Imagine a cleric that wants to specialize in blessing, usually he wants to increase the spell effects, for example cast bless I in 2 targets (1 extra target), increase the bless I R radius (so more people is blessed), etc.
For this, he usually need to wait until medium level (10-15) for having enough skill bonus (with 1-4 ranks is really impossible to use this skill, and is dangerous), but then, he can begin to use the skill when he has the bless III version, losing the interesting opportunity to do it with the I and II version of spell.

Then, removing this limit this character could use the TPs ranks in this skill, and surely in level 2 he could use DPs to have almost 10 ranks in the skill, so he could attemp to use it soon.

Now, is GMs work define the cost, but I recommend to use the first cost (if 4/10 then 4) for the initial 20 ranks (enough skill bonus to try to use effects as extra target with -50), and then use the second cost until the character gets level 20, so then we can use the real cost normally.

You can define your own 'sub-skills' to use this.

[markc]

 I think instead you are making the case for TP's.

MDC

[lorenen]

i agree with markc. just create some TP like:

blessing priest:
a cleric o chanelling spell user with ranks in "protection" that develop spell mastery for that list, some ranks in religion and maybe some lore skills.

traveling magician:
a magician with ranks in spellmastery"lofty bridge", navigation, tracking, region lore and maybe some languages.


metalworks mages:
a magician with ranks in spell mastery for both earth law and fire law, craft: metal work, metal lore, evaluate weapon and evaluate armor

  these are just few examples!!

[yammahoper]

HARP removes the level limit.  I think it couldwork fine in RM and I have used this odd little rule before in a few special situations (a magic statue that could teach any weapon and the PC's could buy up to x2 lvl in ranks).

lynn

[Grinnen Baeritt]

Have to admit that I already pretty much ignore most of the artifical limits established during character creation anyway... for almost everything. The 2-3 rank limits for purchasing the skills I leave unaltered.

RM is intrinsically designed to provide diminishing returns in the system without further restrictions being necessary. This is especially true with most skills that are not used very often or are what I would describe as "personality based specialisations". These are skills (mainly non-combat based) which are fairly limited in application and do not threaten game balance. 

For instance, everyman and occupational skills offically only apply to skills purchased not ones gained by background, hobby or training packages.

I've never understood this with respect to common sence. Surely, everyman/occupational skills are akin to a latent natural ability, skills that, for some reason they subconsiously find easier to pick up rather than a gift that they develop later in life? If this is the case, then surely it would apply to all skills acquired, from whatever source, from the characters inception. They did not suddenly "get better at learning" AFTER being born ,they were born naturally with that ability.

I'd agree completely on the written application or this ruling if the Everyman or Occupational Skill ability were itself purchased AFTER character creation..(like a certain game using a twenty sided dice) that would make complete sense to only apply the increased rate of skill rank gain from that point on.

Much the same could be said for the 10 rank limit on ranks gained through Training Packages... I know that there are some sourcebooks that allow for "lifestyle skills", but why the limit (apart from establishing an artifical play balance)?

IMHO problems ONLY arise when establishing an artifical play balance and this problem is only a fairly temporary one because of the diminishing returns of the skill and experience system. Getting rid of these artifical restrictions makes the system easier to create (and audit) characters for.

[munchy]

HARP, however, has a limit in maximum ranks in a skill which is set according to level, but still I prefer that system as it makes character really flexible as you could learn a new skill really quick to perfection. That of course is not realistic but extremely helpful in gaming.

[markc]

"That of course is not realistic"

I agree and that is why I prefer RMSS/FRP to other games. It in general prevents abuse by PC's.

MDC

[munchy]

That's right. It, however, also, as everything actually, depends on your gamers and as my group is more or less consiting for about 15 years by now, the players do not tend to try to abuse everything. They or better we have come to a very satisfying style of gaming that tries to bear in mind some realism which works independent of the ruleset we use. And so HARP works extremely fine for us.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

HARP, however, has a limit in maximum ranks in a skill which is set according to level, but still I prefer that system as it makes character really flexible as you could learn a new skill really quick to perfection. That of course is not realistic but extremely helpful in gaming.

This may be heretical to say, but this smacks of the D20 rules skills acquistion process.. as does the multiclassing element...and the acquistion of talents after creation. There are considerable improvements over D20, so I'll forgive the HARP rules... they aren't WOTC after all

anyway...

I have no problem with a "sudden learning curve" assuming that there is a precedent for the sudden acquistion of a skill that previously wasn't known... like spending the time out to gain such things in game, this is the very reason that I distain level-based limits when the character is created. There also tends to be a epithany when first discovering some skills in real life, a sudden leap in ability when an improvement discovered by luck. These skills are never generally mastered but require serious study to perfect. Putting some sort of limit put on the rate learnt during play is therefore logical.

[Dark Schneider]

This would be no problem using a xp-ranks system (buy ranks with XPs), but this is really hard to manage, so we have to use levels (easier), so any GM (or group) should define their limits (ranks/lvl). Because the 2 ranks/lvl I think is poor, and you can't make a skill everyman as you want, so that is no solution.

We actually use a linear dev. system that you can develop a skill at plain cost until your level, with recovering DPs as you increase your level.
For example, if you have level 10, you can develop until rank 10 with the first DP cost, and until rank 20 with the second, if you increase level to 11 and you don't develop rank in that skill, you recover the DPs (2nd cost - 1st cost). This makes easier to manage the character development if you need to revise it because you always obtain the same amount of ranks that you can develop in that level, independent you developed 2nd cost ranks or any other thing (no need to book keeping). Adquiring 2nd rank in a level (2nd cost) still have disadvantage as you can develop 2-3 (or more) 1st ranks in other skills with those DPs, so you have less developed skills at that level (character less versatile).

But I see for these 'sub-skills' that there is no need to limit them really (spell mastery, swashbuckling...) so you can use them since you spend the DPs, not since medium-high character level.

The advantage of book-rpgs is that you can modify the rules at your criteria. But as you can sometimes exceed it, is good to have a forum to discuss those changes.