Author Topic: Waylayoing a party  (Read 1351 times)

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Offline Dalewarrior

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Waylayoing a party
« on: February 02, 2022, 06:29:48 PM »
Hello players,
I've got a high level party (average 16th lvl but some newbies too of 5th lvl, and I've got a ton of low level enemies. I'm contemplating an ambush. The waylaying group that is to attack the party doesn't show itself; they're warned to shoot their bows when the party has passed them. So, it will be an ambush at night from the front and the back by a group of rogues.

What I'm wondering is how to handle the perception skill. The ambushers that the group of PCs faces from the front will have to subtract their Stalk & Hide bonuses from Percpetion plus moifiers for a good hiding place full of cover and shadows, but their perceptions is high so they'll  probably spot them.

But it's the group waylaying from their back that interests me. They'll be alerted by a whistle by the frontmen to show up and shoot. Until then they hadn't shown up, so there'd be no possibility to spot them without magic. Should the party of players receive a perception check? They've also got Detect Assassination Ambush that could trigger a perception check. If they fail their perception check they'll be attacked with sniping without the benefit of DB - they'd be history. How would you run this encouter?
Cheers,
DW

Offline jdale

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Re: Waylayoing a party
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2022, 07:00:40 PM »
If there's no line of sight to the group in back, they can't be seen. But it's hard for people to stay completely silent, so I think there would still be a chance they could be heard, or smelled etc if anyone has unusual senses, or notice a random animal being disturbed, etc. Assuming the ambushing group does not flub their rolls for staying hidden, the difficulty to notice them might be pretty high but there ought to be a chance.

If some of those NPCs flub their rolls for hiding, they might not have great disciple about actually keeping their heads down, and there could also be a chance to see them or at least it will be easier to hear them "are they here yet? how long we gotta wait?"
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Waylayoing a party
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2022, 09:53:27 PM »
My many parties over the years have executed countless ambushes, with varying degrees of success, mostly due to the preparation time.

  The first consideration is the terrain. You want to channel the enemy so that they cannot hold a decisive counter attack or retreat. You want to center a kill zone (KZ) in an area clear enough to be raked by arrow fire with minimal natural cover. Snipers should have their primary positions prepared that afford cover and trails prepared to secondary and tertiary firing positions. As with every military operation, there should be predetermined lines of retreat should the plan fall through. Traps and snares should be deployed across possible avenues of lateral retreat, not to stop the enemy but to impede and further confuse the enemy. The use of transplanted local vegetation in camouflage is better than random cuttings as leaves and branches would wither in the hours of waiting and be detected.

  Equipment: Camouflage and concealment takes priority over armor. All articles of equipment are to be inspected and anything metallic or reflective coated with greased coal or mud, as would be exposed skin. Next to camouflage, clothing should allow ease of movement. Weapons should be the best affordable. Bows and arrows carefully inspected as are secondary weapons. Depending on what's available, periscopes can be used to observe the KZ from cover, if unavailable, small hand-sized mirrors affixed to branches would serve as observation devices as well. Calthrops and trip wires should be properly stained to conceal all metal. Alternate signaling devices, such as bird whistles. 

  To avoid detection there are procedures to take: 1) Have the members with the best Perception and Hiding skills direct the concealment of snipers and perform inspections of positions. 2) Have less experienced members totally hidden behind terrain only to expose themselves only when cued. 3) Have the best snipers in preset positions with firing lanes (literally paths of vision that limit detection from other angles) that cross the center of the KZ.

  Since the ambushers seem to know their target, would that party have men on forward point (scouts)? Depending on party size and terrain, scout elements could be deployed just within sight, sometime 2 or 3 in trail. So, if LOS is 100 feet, they are 100 feet apart. Scouts are deployed within LOS as to signal the main body. If that is the case, the ambushers allow the scout to pass undisturbed. If the scout is beyond LOS, he should be targeted by a sniper team and removed.
  If the target employs a close scout, say 20-50 feet ahead of the main body, they are allowed to pass by but followed.

  The snipers. Snipers work best in teams of 2. If the target includes members capable of archery or magic, these elements are primary targets to identify and kill by each team. If the target is known for organization then the next priority target is Command and Control -People who give orders. Back or flank shots are recommended.
  If the target has a number of heavy troops able to react and close, have traps and snares prepared to stop or slow any attempt of target troops from attacking the emplaced snipers. Even simple trip lines can be effective and prone men can be drilled with arrows before they recover. Another defense would be a line of sword and shield defenders to keep the archers safe.
 
  The Cue:   
  When the main body enters the KZ the snipers observing through firing lanes take the clearest shots offered. The other snipers will be cued by voice or whistle, and the targets will likely be roused to action. The A team in position will go into action and B team will close and flank. Fire is kept up until all targets cease movement. Under overwatch (active observation of ready archers), a small team advances to dispatch wounded (or capture, depending on mission requirements).

  Commentary:
  Depending on the tactical ability of the defenders, a lot depends on how quickly they react, and how decisively. If the snipers are effective, they will take out Command and Control elements before decisive action be taken. Unless the mission is to take prisoners, I would have the archers make sure to feather each target multiple times to ensure kills.   
  If the aim is to kill off the party, I prefer to stage attacks when a party is separated and not at full strength. Sniper teams are easier to deploy than small armies.

 
   
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Offline Dalewarrior

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Re: Waylayoing a party
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2022, 04:36:42 AM »
The ambush will take place in a city of late medieval Rhudaur, a successor state of Arnor in the MERP setting.

I also let the experienced members direct the hiding of the others and mark a KZ, Vladimir. :)

My doubt is whether the archer who has 8 attacks won't take me all the assassins before they snipe her as she's got a very high Long bow OB, and QU for Initiative. I think as Dale said that if she's got no line of sight she can't detect the rogues shooting from the back only those from the front.

You could say that she'll look back, but then unless she gains a Perception contest (she'll have to win a Perception roll - the Perception of the foes) she loses initiative for the archers in the back. If she doesn't make it, then either she loses Initiative or is surprised, losing the DBs.

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Waylayoing a party
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2022, 11:49:37 AM »
The ambush will take place in a city of late medieval Rhudaur, a successor state of Arnor in the MERP setting.

I also let the experienced members direct the hiding of the others and mark a KZ, Vladimir. :)

My doubt is whether the archer who has 8 attacks won't take me all the assassins before they snipe her as she's got a very high Long bow OB, and QU for Initiative. I think as Dale said that if she's got no line of sight she can't detect the rogues shooting from the back only those from the front.

You could say that she'll look back, but then unless she gains a Perception contest (she'll have to win a Perception roll - the Perception of the foes) she loses initiative for the archers in the back. If she doesn't make it, then either she loses Initiative or is surprised, losing the DBs.
  Urban ambushes are even deadlier than those in the wild. The only real deterrent is that most cities frown upon fighting in the streets so unless the local constabulary has been bought off, such an event is not ignored.
 
  I could say that my entire six years in the military was devoted to RPG research as I enjoyed two years in Germany exploring Medieval cities and examining the architecture, street layouts and historical features that figured into warfare from the Dark Ages to the present (as a Communist invasion was expected during the Cold War era).
  World War Two German snipers were particularly effective at using Medieval architecture to their advantage: The tile roof of a German building or cottage is actually a light wooden frame that the tiles simply rest upon. Remove one or two tiles and an effective firing lane can be opened along a set line of sight that cannot be easily detected, especially from other angles. A sniper would then set up a shooting stand a few meters from the hole and be able to take multiple shots while undetected. A series of snipers with similar firing lanes that cross the KZ up, down and laterally would be easy to set up, as the shooting stands would be located in the upper attics, with commanding views.

  An urban ambush in an active city is far more deadly -Unlike a wartime scenario, the enemy force won't be at full battle awareness. There may be random civilians in the area, or even hostile confederates who can attack targets to keep them adequately distracted so that they cannot use their Perception effectively.

  To limit the targets' mobility, heavy carts can be emplaced ahead and behind the path of travel, moved into place and brakes locked. These can be turned into small fortresses and close-range sniper positions (this is the Hussite Wagenberg, which I have used multiple times in past games, and in WW2 terms the Russians used Tachanka machinegun carts to the same effect).  Every building lining the street is a potential sniper's position or storm infantry hideout. The following ambush group could also take up positions on or behind the rear heavy cart and attack from partial cover.

  If there are mounts, have the lower skilled archers target those, as they will have lower DB. The more confusion the better and controlling wounded or dying animals will reduce the combat effectiveness of riders. I'd toss pots of predatory animal urine or blood into the streets to further frighten their mounts. (In one campaign, my character with a Hvy crossbow teamed up with a siege arbalest NPC who would target mounts while my PC killed the rider while in mid-fall and unable to defend themselves. They had servants who loaded additional weapons and had them ready in order to keep up a frightening rate of fire).

  In an urban setting, cueing the ambush is actually far easier as the go signal could be as innocuous as waving a blue handkerchief...

  In my gaming club, it was a regular practice for a GM to employ other players as OPFOR (Opposing Forces) to counter powerful players. In this practice of sanctioned PKP, players were put to a real test of skills and command against PCs, not disposable NPCs. We used this method to crush small parties up to military units of divisional strength with varying success. I've even used this on my own "gods of the battlefield" players who eventually bit off far more than they could chew, despite my constant warnings. 

  The best way to teach a PC a valuable lesson (or kill them) is to use another PC.
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Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Waylayoing a party
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2022, 04:05:50 AM »
Perhaps its also an option to think about what could go wrong for the NPCs in the ambush, e.g. what would they do if one of them gets detected or what would they do if their initial attack does less damage than they had expected. We usually handle such an ambush as a situation where Stalk & Hide vs. Perception gets used in some way. And there it can always happen that a PC has a very good perception roll or one of the ambushers messes up his hiding completely. IMO a railroading approach where the ambush needs to run 100% successful and conditions get faked so that this is happening is not a good idea.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Waylayoing a party
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2022, 05:21:09 AM »
That's a perfect chance for the party to roll Sense Ambush/Assassin!  That's what it's for :)

Our group also took the Ambush skill and used it as the ability to set up a successful ambush.  i.e.: Choosing the best location to stage an ambush or choosing the best method to implement the ambush.

We also use it as a RR-type roll off.  The simplified use is the attackers roll "Ambush" and get a result.  The Defenders roll Sense Ambush Assassin.  The higher roll succeeds.

Another method is for the attackers roll Ambush.  Any points above 100 were subtracted from the defenders' perception rolls (including SAA)

We wanted the Ambush skill to be of more use in our game and to encourage more players to invest in it.

We also modified Stalk/Hide to work for the players.  The Stalk part is AG/SD and the Hide part is SD.  This allowed would-be attackers to actively follow their prey to avoid detection or simply stay put and hope they hid well.  We resolve these challenges as above with Ambush.
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Waylayoing a party
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2022, 05:30:06 AM »
Perhaps its also an option to think about what could go wrong for the NPCs in the ambush, e.g. what would they do if one of them gets detected or what would they do if their initial attack does less damage than they had expected. We usually handle such an ambush as a situation where Stalk & Hide vs. Perception gets used in some way. And there it can always happen that a PC has a very good perception roll or one of the ambushers messes up his hiding completely. IMO a railroading approach where the ambush needs to run 100% successful and conditions get faked so that this is happening is not a good idea.
  This is precisely why my club came up with the PKP option. No NPC could match the skill of a PC and having players determine contingencies should a plan go wrong is crucial.
NPCs don't ask themselves "What would we do in the event of a botched ambush?" Putting all the planning on the GM eventually winds up with many scenarios duplicating each other. Having other players engineer the ambush also allows for a different perspective as two players may come up with two entirely different plans.
  If the target has a very high perception, give them nothing to perceive. Make sure all elements are out of line of sight. The Cue could then be as simple as a vendor shouting the "go" signal for waiting team members to spring into action.
  Another option is just having members hiding in plain sight as random pedestrians and vendors in the streets and shop stalls. In a life or death situation you have to deny the opponent any possible advantage.

  In my world, if the fight is fair, you messed up.

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Offline Dalewarrior

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Re: Waylayoing a party
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2022, 07:35:16 AM »
Yeah, I think I'll go along with the Sense Ambush skill prompting an Orientation/Perception roll. But unless it's very high the PCs will lose Initiative. The waylaying takes place in a lawless part of town so there's no constabulary. If the ambush fails the rogues will run for their lives. :)

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Waylayoing a party
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2022, 11:21:49 AM »
Yeah, I think I'll go along with the Sense Ambush skill prompting an Orientation/Perception roll. But unless it's very high the PCs will lose Initiative. The waylaying takes place in a lawless part of town so there's no constabulary. If the ambush fails the rogues will run for their lives. :)
  Good. If that's the case, I'd hire a number of local street gangs to run interference should the plan go South:
"I dunno, sirrah. Some foreigner handed us a purse of silver to just be here, and only fight if'n we were beset."

  Depending on how elaborate the plot, I'd have fake constables (or better, bought constables), ready to take "suspects" into custody and delay the target party with impromptu interrogation and promises of thorough investigation. 

  Depending on the power of the targets, I would aim to destroy them on all levels: In battle, by law, and public perception. The Ambush is battle; The follow up would be criminal charges should there be civilian casualties in their street brawl; the last would be a whispering campaign to place full blame on the target for various brutal, criminal acts. Turn the target into villains and outlaws as to have the weight of law behind every bounty hunter.

  Yeah, I've done this more than once. Few adventuring parties are squeaky clean and every public nuisance story of drunken brawls may be exploited. Even my current party has a player who has no business in a serious RPG. He drunkenly carouses and picks random fights when bored and has yet to contribute to advancing the storyline. I plan to use him as a sacrificial chip to prove that the party is ready to pay for its errors...or just murder him in his sleep. "Kill one and you can terrorize a thousand." -Sun Tzu   
When the Master governs, the people
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Offline Dalewarrior

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Re: Waylayoing a party
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2022, 03:42:53 PM »
Yes, turn the PCs into outlaws is wicked. But in my city, the government is divided and will attempt to help them. On the other hand, the occupying forces, the Witches of Angmar and their crooks in the underworld, will at some time attempt an assassination.

I've found a great short adventure in the French magazine Casus Belli, where the PCs will be introduced to the underworld, but I'm still letting Google Translate do its work!

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Waylayoing a party
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2022, 07:41:13 AM »
Yes, turn the PCs into outlaws is wicked. But in my city, the government is divided and will attempt to help them. On the other hand, the occupying forces, the Witches of Angmar and their crooks in the underworld, will at some time attempt an assassination.

I've found a great short adventure in the French magazine Casus Belli, where the PCs will be introduced to the underworld, but I'm still letting Google Translate do its work!
  I GMed a campaign where the players were in a mercenary unit and the NPC commander was called away during campaign against a local rebellion. The players had a NPC commander because none of the players wanted any form of responsibility. The NPC commander didn't appoint anybody in charge "Just figure it out among yourselves."
  Bored, the players attacked a military base captured by the rebels and imagining themselves as modern Mongols, proceeded to torture and kill their prisoners. One of the players secretly recorded all of it and released the videos. I knew the players would hang themselves but this was too easy.
  During the attack on the base hundreds of civilians died in bunkers due to the generous use of unrestricted artillery. The party wanted to occupy the base but soon discovered that their attack destroyed all the water and power connections in the area. One player discovered hundreds of refugees in the area and took in all the soldiers without screening them. Several rebels among the refugees sabotaged facilities and even drove off with several vehicles.
  The players got into an argument over the recent incidents and a comical brawl ensued, which was also recorded and released...
Eventually, due to the general incompetence of the party (They were unbeatable gods on the battlefield and utterly useless anywhere else) one of the players was kidnaped and filmed in a rebel-held city being paraded through the street and pelted with rotten vegetables. The rebel faction's recruitment surged due to the atrocities and the government was desperately working at damage control. The unit was pulled from the campaign, its contract failed. As mercenaries, the players could not be charged with any crimes but the unit did lose considerable prestige.
 
  There were several assassination attempts against the guilty players, some hired by vengeful rebels, some hired by the other players.

  I didn't even have to encourage to party to self-destruct, they did it all on their own, although I subsequently worked on the weakest links by appealing to their self-interest and cut secret deals concerning rare technology, so the party had at least one infiltrator.

  I don't expect a party to self-destruct but I do exploit any disagreement among players (and my players had plenty of disagreements to exploit) as well as any axe to grind.

  A divided government may mean the players may have both support and opposition, depending on the politics. One thing no politician likes: Apolitical bodies, people who don't let you know exactly where they stand.
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
-Lao Tzu

Offline MisterK

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Re: Waylayoing a party
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2022, 10:38:47 AM »
One thing no politician likes: Apolitical bodies, people who don't let you know exactly where they stand.
Isn't that exactly what politicians do ? ;D

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Waylayoing a party
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2022, 01:33:57 PM »
One thing no politician likes: Apolitical bodies, people who don't let you know exactly where they stand.
Isn't that exactly what politicians do ? ;D
  I've held elected office for 12 years and have yet to meet another in office who isn't vocal about exactly where they stand. There are many stupid politicians who can't give straight answers in an interview but they have staffers to tell them where they stand, in case they aren't sure.
  The companies that lobby for political favor are very eager to point out the companies that don't, as Microsoft found out in 1998.
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
-Lao Tzu