Forum > General Discussion
Are people having trouble with Fantasy?
Cory Magel:
Maybe Scottish people don't like being portrayed as grumpy 'little people' that are often pre-occupied with rocks and precious metals. I mean, it's pretty much the norm in fantasy that they have a Scottish accent.
If we're to assume that any association to any ethnicity has social commentary implications then we pretty much have to tell the creative world it's not allowed. At all. They'll have have to come up with their own, unique cultures. Nothing throughout actual human history is acceptable. Is that really where we need to go? I don't think so.
It's largely small vocal groups that are making these things an issue and the media is latching on to it because it's one of the latest tabloid level topics that will get them ratings. People love to watch a good fight unfortunately. (And to clarify that, because some might need it, I'm not referring to the overarching problem of racism, I'm talking about taking the push back against it to a silly level).
OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol:
--- Quote from: Cory Magel on December 22, 2021, 01:16:14 PM ---Maybe Scottish people don't like being portrayed as grumpy 'little people' that are often pre-occupied with rocks and precious metals. I mean, it's pretty much the norm in fantasy that they have a Scottish accent.
--- End quote ---
I think there's a huge difference between being portrayed as "grumpy 'little people' that are often pre-occupied with rocks and precious metals" and "always evil barbaric people that may be assimilated to 'monsters' and, as such, may perfectly be killed"… I mean, a dozen orcs killed a few humans? How horrible! Let's eradicate the whole orc race! A few humans killed whole orc villages? Oh, they're such heroes!
As I said, it's IMO more about people, and even more writers, being byproducts of their environment, times… and audience. If I were a white man living in South Africa during the Apartheid and created a world around it, would I be racist whilst most of my peers, thus the public audience for whom I write, don't see anything wrong with it, least it to be "racist"? Would I even realise or even wonder about it?
I think the issue is more about realising the time period when Fantasy tropes were created, and adapting them to the modern world. For instance, not making orcs an "always evil" or "barbaric" race but show it a as merely a difference culture, with people equally able of good and evil, of arts, poetry and war, and, in truth, absolutely not different as people as the high elves.
Cory Magel:
I'm not entirely sure why I've grown up not giving a damn about what race someone is. Partially my parents or upbringing, partially my friends, partially my environments growing up. I find this topic interesting but often super frustrating because my rational brain tells me no human is inherently good, evil, dumb, smart, etc. There are simply differing situations, experiences and cultures that shape that person... but I also understand that as a result of those things people can develop certain ignorance's or blind spots which they don't have as much control as we would like. Making them unreasonable about those thing, but not in an intentional way.
In RM I've separated the Adolescence skills (which I call culture) from the Races because it seems dumb that an Elf raised by Dwarves wouldn't pick up... let's say blacksmithing rather than, let's say, archery. I leave the stat modifiers alone, but I let players take pick one race and take another races background skills.
--- Quote --- think there's a huge difference between being portrayed as "grumpy 'little people' that are often pre-occupied with rocks and precious metals" and "always evil barbaric people that may be assimilated to 'monsters' and, as such, may perfectly to be killed"
--- End quote ---
The basic concept or the nature of the idea and degree to which it's taken? We're talking about blanket labeling/stereotyping. Is there an 'acceptable' level of that? Is it only bad if the fantasy race kills people or is 'evil'? The writer of the article jdale links specifically comments that good stereotypes can be just as bad as bad ones. If you ask society to put a line in the sand there will be a bunch of lines, not just one.
In regarding the article jdale links I pondered it a bit before replying regarding is specifically...
--- Quote ---"So orcs are degenerate corruptions of the OG elves…"
--- End quote ---
He mentions this in passing, and really doesn't again, which leaves me thinking some of his own biased is bleeding into the very topic he's trying to address.
--- Quote ---"...kinda like how Mongoloids, Negroids, and other people of color are corrupt, degenerate versions of the noble white Caucasoids whom they resent."
--- End quote ---
Yes. Like that. He creates an unflattering version of both, not just one.
--- Quote ---Now that description of orcs which starts this piece, which comes from Tolkien’s Letter #210, makes more sense. When he writes “Mongol-types,” he straight-up tells us he made the Mongol terror and the Mongoloid stereotype into an entire species.
--- End quote ---
Does he? Or is this just the writers own biased assigning that belief?
Now, Tolkien creates a corrupted version of something, then gave it physical attributes of 'mongol-types'. Do we know Tolkien was racist? Are there people who know him well that can say that's true? Are there people who he displayed such behavior towards? Do we have any writings where he admits any of this? I don't think there are or is.
--- Quote ---The Orcs are definitely stated to be corruptions of the 'human' form seen in Elves and Men. They are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types.
--- End quote ---
The only part of this quote that I, personally, feel is a bit questionable is the 'least lovely' part. What does he mean by that? I don't really know and neither does anyone who he didn't tell if he had a dislike for them or not.
We know that people are a culmination of their knowledge and that knowledge is shaped by their teachers and their own experiences. So it is possible Tolkien was using his own knowledge based on his upbringing and experiences and making an biased choice. But it's also possible he just needed a baseline source to work from.
I know someone that I never considered racist, who was held at gunpoint when their store was robbed by a black man. That person admitted after that they they are now a little afraid of black people as a result of this incident (and that this bothers them). I've never asked it, but I'm curious what the answer would be if I asked that person; "If a white person had held you up, would you be afraid of white people?". I would guess (possibly incorrectly) the answer would likely be 'no' weather they realize it or not. So... are they racist? Kinda hard to answer in a way without being in their own head. Pretty sure a psychiatrist would just say it's a primal reaction... like if you eat something right before you throw up you tend to have a hard time eating that thing again. Heck, maybe they'd just be afraid all the time because they're surround by white people all the time.
Tolkien creates a corrupted version of something, then gave it physical attributes of 'mongol-types'. Is that racist? At it's core, I don't think so. Is the 'least lovely' comment racist? The general belief might be, but we don't know that that is his personal belief.
So... like I asked before. Do we just tell the world no fantasy race can be based on a real world race? That seems pretty unrealistic.
MisterK:
--- Quote from: Cory Magel on December 22, 2021, 03:17:04 PM ---So... like I asked before. Do we just tell the world no fantasy race can be based on a real world race? That seems pretty unrealistic.
--- End quote ---
Oh, it's not that. It's just that
- you don't create actual stereotypes
- you don't create absolutes
And then you're fine.
All orcs are not bloodthirsty raiders who revel in pillage, rape, and slaughter (in that order). This is the opinion of the human farmers who live uncomfortably close to the orc clans that raid their settlements, and *some* orcs have engaged in pillage, rape and slaughter (more pillage than rape and slaughter). And then, you find a reason why those orcs would raid the settlements : religion ? lack of resources ? old grudge that degenerated into interspecies hatred ? the human farmers have come a couple of centuries ago to colonise new lands and, in the process, defile ancient grounds where the orcs were laying their deceased to rest ? the orcs are being controlled by someone who wants the human farmers to leave the lands (one way or another) for some personal reason ? one of the orc chiefs is deluded and believes the only way orcs can become a real power is by taking human slaves and begetting halfbreeds that will have the best traits of both races ? orcs are themselves being pushed by other raiders ?
Instead of having a stereotype (orcs are evil), you create a viewpoint, and then you work out the chains of causality.
Grinnen Baeritt:
Personally, I think it is more that people are having trouble with reality.
I've always been opposed to the idea that because *some* people are different that makes it somehow wrong to define a class, race, ethnicity, or musical tastes as a "defined group", and that "group" do not then share the same similar attitudes and "interests"... for me it's simply statistics. The real "Problem" starts when people start believing that a possible minority actually reflects the majority... and that impacts on the attitude that it's an impossibility to have a view/attitude that is "different" from a perceived norm.
Therefore it might be ok, to say that "Santa is old, male, overweight, bearded, pale skinned...and says Ho, ho ho!" since that's the generally accepted view and one held by the majority of a specific population who believe of the existence of said being. But not OK to deny that it's a possibility to accept that Santa, is actually just a figment of the imagination, only brought into the consciousness of the majority for purposes of crass consumerism and that, for some strange reason, seems to be female, young, attractive, with the perchant for singing "All I want is Christmas.." .
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