Author Topic: Seeking feedback on a "Multiple Stab Attacks Using a Dagger" possible rule  (Read 579 times)

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Offline C.Tozer

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Hi folks

Curious to get any feedback for the following possible House Rule for RM2/RMC please. Is it realistic and workable to you think?

Thank you

"Multiple Stab Attacks Using a Dagger

As a general rule, unless you are using something like a “Haste” spell (doubling your speed) or using one weapon in each hand, you can typically only get one attack with one melee weapon per a standard Rolemaster 10 second round.

This house rule is the one exception to that rule.  Assume an attacker, armed with either a dagger, knife, shank or just something small, sharp and pointy, manages to either:

a)   Surprise their chosen defender from behind and assuming they manage a successful grapple/hold maneuver to make several somewhat frenzied attacks on the victim.
These attacks could be literally stabbing in the back or reaching around with the knife/whatever and stabbing repeatedly in the stomach/chest.

OR

b)   Approaches/closes and grapples/holds the defender from either the front or side and then makes several fast, uncontrolled attacks on the victim

OR

c)   Pins the defender down on the ground/straddles them and again in a frenzy stabs them repletely

Sadly, there are a number of cases detailed on the internet showing rapid, frenzy knife/dagger attacks which involve the defender being held by the attacker who is able to attack in very rapid succession with multiple stabs in a matter of a few seconds.

What I am trying to replicate with this house rule are some of the savage scenes that we have seen in films and TV shows such as:
“Game of Thrones: The Red Wedding”
•   mrpatty29, Published on Jun 3, 2013
•   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rgDvP39Lqw 
•   See the attack at 1:30

Such an attack, which takes place in one round, is handled as follows:

1.   The attacker approaches the defender to within striking distance. This approach could be, potentially, one of the following:
a.   Undetected/from behind/the side/invisible
b.   As part of combat (ie a combatant armed only with a dagger against a foe with a spear. The person with the dagger would need to close the distance where they were right up next to their defender (and rendering the spear useless)
c.   In a crowded room or street with the attacker managing to get up close to the victim

2.   The attacker then attempts either;
a.   A Grapple Attack on the defender (if they wish to inflict damage on them)
b.   Or a Grappling without injury[/left]
  • i.   Use the Movement & Maneuver Table
    ii.   GM decides what stats are relevant for both attacker and defender, and how difficult the maneuver is
    iii.   The Attacker rolls, adds their bonuses, and look up the result (usually a number)
    iv.   The Defender then has to roll to break free, and the number is a negative mod to their roll (representing how well the attacker has grappled the defender) with the intent of holding them in such a way that they can at very close range stab the defender repeatedly and prevent the defender from breaking free.
c.   This is 50% action of the attackers first attacking round.
d.   If a grappling critical is scored, the defender is considered grappled and allows the attacker to use the remaining 50% of their action for multiple stabs unless the defender manages to break free or counter attack (see 3 below).
       NOTE that this Grapple Attack may well include both a Surprise, Flank, Rear Flank or Rear bonuses (See AL.17)

3.   If the Grapple critical result hasn’t incapacitated the defender (ie stunned etc), the defender a chance to perform an action to break free or counter attack. Options could include:
a.   Martial Arts Sweep & Throw in response as the attacker is in a position to be flipped but at a penalty of at least -25 to OB
b.   Martial Arts Strike or Grapple or Brawling but at a penalty of at least -25 to OB
c.   Perhaps use an edged weapon they are still holding (see below) to try to cut the attacker (with at least -70 to OB).
d.   The defender's skill at Melee Scuffle could counteract some of the defender bonuses
e.   A Strength Maneuver to break free of either the Grapple Attack or Grappling without injury
  • i.   The Grappling without injury is described above
    ii.   The Grapple Attack would also require a roll on the Movement & Maneuver to give the defender a percentage chance of breaking free

4.   If the defender scores a critical with their counter attack or the Defender is successful in trying to break free using the Strength Maneuver the grapple is considered broken with both the defender and Attacker have 50% of their actions for the round to use

5.   If the defender doesn’t score a critical or break free they are still grappled. In the remaining 50% of the round the attacker can then make either;
a.   three attacks at -40 to each attack
b.   four attacks at -50 to each attack
c.   five attacks at -60 to each attack
The attacker would get a +30 bonus for “Downed Foe” but not surprise

NOTE: Despite the benefit of getting multiple attacks in one round it is assumed that this style of attack would not be favored by a trained attacker or any character with a decent Ambush skill. Rather such an attacker would most likely use Ambush, as if they are halfway decent, they are more likely to inflict a killing blow.

NOTE: This type of attack is meant to simulate the frenzied attack that might come with either an unskilled attacker (ie attempting to stab quacking and as many times as possible). Certainly, some of these attacks are going to be ineffective (perhaps the victim manages to struggle, and attacks are missed, or hits the victim’s hands or the attackers blade glances off a rib due to the rapid attacking actions) but likely some will land where the attacker is hoping for.

NOTE: I can’t think of any other weapons which would realistically allow an attacker to be able to hold and then attack a victim; even with say a small ax/handaxe the attack needs at least a bit of reach/swing to make the axe effective.

NOTE: The only weapon that would realistically be able to counterattack such a close quarters attack would be another knife/dagger/shank.

If the victim was holding to a longer edged weapon, say a short sword or longsword, they may be able to struggle and attempt to use the edge to cut the attacker but at a -70 to OB"
[/i]
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Offline markc

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Re: Seeking feedback on a "Multiple Stab Attacks Using a Dagger" possible rule
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2021, 01:11:34 PM »
Note: I did not read the whole thing because you have a common error right at the start.

RM2 Combat Common Error:
You are confusing 1 roll with 1 swing of a persons arm.
Instead your roll determines how you describe the action to your players. In your case your multiple stabs are simply a very high roll that can be described as either multiple strikes or one strike.

Mods to Combat:
IMHO, a lot of the other things you talk about are OB mods and in various RM2 books there are rules for such.
I did a search and it looks like back in 2016 you asked the same general question and were pointed to RM2 Arms Companion.
I am away from my books right now but tomorrow I will be able to look a bit more as I am also going to look at another RM2 AC issue more in depth.
I did have about 2 min to look at the other issue and saw a rule for duel wielding in RM2 AC.
RMSS Martial Arts Companion (MAC): I know there are rules in the MAC for duel wielding as well as combat styles.
RMC Book: I have forgotten most of RMC but I seem to remember a combat companion for the version that may have had some rules adapted from the MAC for RMC. But again I do not know for sure.

But in general (RM2) you are confusing 1 roll with 1 swing and instead 1 roll represents many actions taken in combat in the round.
MDC   
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Offline markc

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Re: Seeking feedback on a "Multiple Stab Attacks Using a Dagger" possible rule
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2021, 01:32:03 PM »
Note: I should have said Core RM2 Combat and that I have played using some RM2 multi attack rules and they can become very cumbersome in play. Cumbersome in that it requires a lot more time to figure out base OB/DB, then apply mods to each, roll each "attack", look up info then roll each crit, then if necessary roll secondary effects for each attack (ie elemental blade effects or poison or acid, etc).
In general as I said it significantly bogged down play and tended to burn out players unless they "loved dice rolling" and being the "center of attention" for taking the most time every round (or I am the most important so I take the actions that take the most time to figure out mods and roll slow, etc).

Note: RMSS MAC: You could do a special ability with a combat style to simulate the training a style provides in a unique situation, ie this would most likely be a OB mod, possibly a DB penalty or requirement and a crit mod.
Note: RMC Combat book: Again this may be workable in this book but I do not remember it enough to comment.

MDC   
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
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Offline markc

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Re: Seeking feedback on a "Multiple Stab Attacks Using a Dagger" possible rule
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2021, 02:44:02 PM »
Since I have not been here in a while I should note,
1) I support people playing games in a way that they enjoy except when it is disruptive and or harmful (ie I do not generally support GM's hiring martial artists to play the opponents for full action RPG experience...unless... everyone agrees with it before hand).
2) In general I have played many games and do not find rolling 30-50 d6 or 80+ d10 a round fun as often it takes a lot of time away from other things in game. But in the past when I had more time I did play games like that (for a time) and I and the groups I played with tended to lose interest quickly. At times we did enjoy a break from one game and have a short series of sessions with a game that involved "lots" of dice rolling before going back to different resolution methods.
Also I tend to not like very simple resolution methods as to me they just gloss over way too many things in the name of simplicity or lack of ability to make a more comprehensive syatem.

MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline markc

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Re: Seeking feedback on a "Multiple Stab Attacks Using a Dagger" possible rule
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2021, 04:26:45 PM »
Some questions first:
1) How do you describe an attack with the following parameters?
a) 3 ranks in dagger with a roll result of 150?
b) 30 ranks of dagger with a roll of 150?
c) (note no RM2 concept (really) of martial art combat styles like in the RMSS MAC but might be in RMC combat book), Skill Dagger combat style 30 ranks, dagger skill 30 ranks, roll result 150?

Some Thoughts on your question:
A) Are you saying that a player wants to pre determine a result? ie I want my attack to be multiple dagger strikes to the chest that provides the following results (insert players wish here)?
Thought 1) My answer to the above, the dice tell the results and the GM adapts the crit and damage to the situation.
Thought 2) In general the GM takes in all of the play situations that are unique to that time segment in combat and describes the result.

Issues and some solutions for your question:
1) Target area: Note Some rules for targeting area in some books but not in RM2 Core combat
2) OB Mods for situations are determined by GM
3) Crit Mods are done by skill (ambush) in RM2
4) IIRC, in a RM2 book you can get additional crit mods by other skills or uses of other skills. But be very careful of stacking of more then one skills and remember that there are spells and magical abilities that may also affect that same result. IMHO you have to ask how much can you combine the above in your game before it become unbalancing.

MDC   
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline C.Tozer

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Re: Seeking feedback on a "Multiple Stab Attacks Using a Dagger" possible rule
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2021, 05:43:37 PM »
Hi Mark

Firstly thanks for taking the time to respond and yes apologies I had forgotten that I had asked this some years back.

Some questions first:
1) How do you describe an attack with the following parameters?
a) 3 ranks in dagger with a roll result of 150?
b) 30 ranks of dagger with a roll of 150?
c) (note no RM2 concept (really) of martial art combat styles like in the RMSS MAC but might be in RMC combat book), Skill Dagger combat style 30 ranks, dagger skill 30 ranks, roll result 150?

RE your questions above - if all attacks results in a 150 you simply follow the approprate armor type and then apply the results - ie, and I guess the point you are making is, it doesn't matter how skilled you are really. What is important is the result which could be due to a very luckly high dice roll.

Some Thoughts on your question:
A) Are you saying that a player wants to pre determine a result? ie I want my attack to be multiple dagger strikes to the chest that provides the following results (insert players wish here)?
Thought 1) My answer to the above, the dice tell the results and the GM adapts the crit and damage to the situation.
Thought 2) In general the GM takes in all of the play situations that are unique to that time segment in combat and describes the result.

RE your thoughts here:
A) Yes typically the character/NPC wants to inflict multiple stab wounds to inflict one or more mortal stabs while holding/incapacitating/sitting on top of the defender
1) Yes true but I am attempting to come up with a "Home Rule" and was wanting other RM fan's opinion on this house rule rather than trying to find the answer in a rule book
2.) Yeah this may be be correct answer - the GM rules that in this particular situation "X" seems like the reasonably result.

So as mentioned above the purpose of the post was to kick around a few ideas for a House Rule and see what people thought. The idea is to try to similuate an often freznied type attack where the attacker can either hold/restrain the defender and get multiple stab wounds with a likely short, sharp object.

The typel of attack I'm trying to dream up balanced (?) rules for can be seen at 1min 30 secs of the following Youtube clip of the Red Wedding https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rgDvP39Lqw (personally I find this a pretty horrific peiece of TV)

This type of attack isn't necessarily an ambush but rather lots of rapid stabs to try to inflict a mortal injury.

The idea was to try to create a situation where the defender may still be able to escape or fight the attacker off or that the attacker could succeed. Absolutely I understand that in normal Rolemaster Rules that an attack is a series of cuts, thrusts etc (ie more than one single swing) but I wanted to come up with some possible different Home Rules for the specific situation where an attacker is either holding or restraining the defender.

As mentioned my suggested ideas aren't seeking a way to do things with the existing rules but as independent/new rules.

If the answer is "your ideas are bollocks"/"nope doesn't work in my opinion" all good in my opinion as I'm just curious to hear what others thing.

Cheers :)

Chris
**Looking for RoleMaster Gamers in, Auckland, New Zealand .... any ideas of someone you know who could be interested please let me know**

Offline markc

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Re: Seeking feedback on a "Multiple Stab Attacks Using a Dagger" possible rule
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2021, 10:47:35 PM »
After looking at the clip it is a surprise attack against and unknowing and sitting foe, so it would have mods to OB and crit's based on skills of the PC.
IMHO, The multiple stab's is simply a high skill level and surprise.
Note: Books, movies and TV can be good inspiration but also it is easy to forget that they are scripted in nature or if it is more easy to see actors are running on a program defined by the programmer (author, director, etc).   

In general I base and ask my players to base attack descriptions based on situation, race, stats, skills and equipment. ie no stabbing a toothpick into someone's eye having their head explode, unless there is a valid reason that a toothpick stabbed into the persons eye would have their head explode.

Past Experiences:
In the past I have played with and had players say what do I need to roll to do X, generally X referrers to attacking a specific location or achieving a specialized cit.
I am sure you can think of easy examples with firearms that would cause instant kills. Instant kills are generally great for players targets but bad for players if they are the targets.
I have found you generally do not want to trade OB penalties for auto crits as it tends to never work out well in the long run.

If you are looking for a profession that tends to be modified a lot in high level RM2 games it is the Night Blade do to instant kills.

MDC 
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Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Seeking feedback on a "Multiple Stab Attacks Using a Dagger" possible rule
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2021, 08:31:21 AM »
As markc says, a single attack roll is not a single swing of a blade. I would do it as:
  • Player describes how they're attacking. In this case they say they're rapidly stabbing the same spot.
  • Player rolls attack and gets a crit
  • Player applies ambush ranks to modify that crit
  • The Crit is described in a way that matches the attack's description. i.e. +5 hits, bleeding 3/round might be bleeding 1/round 3 times. The wounds are so close together that a single healing spell can still fix them (this maintains the roll side of things without hampering the role part.
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Offline markc

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Re: Seeking feedback on a "Multiple Stab Attacks Using a Dagger" possible rule
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2021, 02:10:47 PM »
Having thought about it more I might model it this way.
1) Surprise Round 1:
Attack, result was stun no maneuver and no one noticed that attack
2) Surprise Round 2:
Attack and move away (if moving after attack is allowed by your combat system).

Mods:
I would apply mods for the following with a note that if it causes problems that I would change them in the future.
1) Unaware Target: as in book
2) Seated Target: if book has mods to target in fixed stabilized position (ie will not move and braced so take extra damage and bonus to either ambush roll or ambush crit mod or both)
Note: Since one of the main purposes is death of the person and I feel the person who orchestrated the Red wedding would do so, I would also use poison on the blade. So I would apply poison results to attack.

From Past Games:
a) In past games when the rules have had targeting or I made up special targeting rules it has shifted the game in your case above you may have players eat standing up and hyper aware of their surroundings (which may be valid responses if they had survived the Red Wedding but not if they just heard about it).
b) Players have tried to use targeting after reaching a specific level of skill in games to skew combat in their favor (as you would expect) and resulted in a lot of counter targeting actions by people in the know and the players.
c) In general we then looked to rules for things such as mods for missile/thrown/spell attacks through allies and % chance to hit your own group members as we tended to fined if we did not the group sniper (in the back) often dominated the battles more then we thought they should.

But having said that you should find out for your self where your groups "fun zone" is and play to that.
MDC


 
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Offline brole

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Re: Seeking feedback on a "Multiple Stab Attacks Using a Dagger" possible rule
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2021, 05:42:13 AM »
I never really thought of putting this in a game but it could make sense, as undoubtedly a dagger can be moved quicker than a larger weapon.

This rule could tie in with C&T arrow symbol where if 1st attack lands a critical the listed attack occurs same round.

How to implement?
To float some ideas, I'm thinking this is used with a successful Closing skill or Stalk skill depending on situation.
Upon successful closing/stalk the first dagger attack occurs.
Then as mentioned if critical is scored a follow up attack occurs same round.
Cap the rank bonus of follow up attack with attacker's Weapon Mastery skill rank in dagger.

I don't think a separate grapple move/attack is essential here.

This skill could be an alternative path to Ambush where a character is worse off with Subterfuge/Deadly skill bonuses, or if their background describes this skill.
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Offline markc

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Re: Seeking feedback on a "Multiple Stab Attacks Using a Dagger" possible rule
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2021, 01:47:39 PM »
IMHO, it is a very unique situation (and guided by a author, director and actors so they decide what occurs and what does not occur) in that it is very noisy and a lot of things are going on thus it is possible for a strike to go almost unnoticed for a time because there are so many distractions.

In general we roll init every round and provide mods for various things, so as you can surmise a stun no maneuver in a surprise round means you have not acted yet and might no be have the awareness to defend you self well and thus be subject to another ambush attack as if you were surprised. 

IMHO, there are lot of different combat systems and combat rules as well as house rules and all of those play a part in how you would do recreations and even if the recreations work.

Ambush is a very useful and deadly skill and in general it increases the chance of one shot one kill situations in RM. This might be fine for players but against players it is less fine.
Note: If you role play like the game is a video game (I know some that do) then death is no big deal as you will probably be only out until the end of the battle or maybe even revived during the battle to be permanently fixed later.
But a lot of people do not play RM that way and I know quite a few that do not allow resurrections so if you die you have to spend quite a long time recreating a character.

MDC   
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.