Topic: What's the deal with Evil Spell Lists?

[thrud]

I'd greatly appreciate hearing some thoughts on how to use evil spell lists.
Now, I am a RM veteran and I'm very familiar with pretty much everything Rolemaster. When I ask question here on the board, I'm usually interested in minute details and interpretations to see how other GM's are doing.

In RMFRP it's explicitly stated that only pure users have access to the evil lists. But, in FRP basic rules there are no hybrids.
The evil spell users are referred to as Evil Cleric, Evil Magician, Evil Mentalist, etc.
In Channeling companion one example of a hybrid specialty priest is the Necromancer. The Necromancer in the example given has access to Evil lists, and is a hybrid.

So... Who (pure, hybrids, semi,...) has access to Evil spell Lists and why? Given it's an evil user of course.

My personal opinion: I feel both pure and hybrids should have access at the very least.
Why not allow semi's access? They only have 6 baselist slots anyway. The best selling point for evil has always been the promise of power. It's supposed to be seductive... Why would anyone risk the evil path if there wasn't any real gain? 

As a small by question: Why should only the pures get 10 baselists? I only see meta-gaming reasons. An attempt at nerfing hybrids, but maybe I've missed something?

[markc]

I am not sure about the RAW, but here is my experience:


0) Evil Spell Lists are more powerful then other spell lists
1) Was taught RM2 and in that setting anyone (PArm, SS, PS, Hy) could use Evil Spell Lists but in the game setting their were prices to be paid.
2) IIRC there was a section in either RM2 SL or RMSS SL about evil lists, I do not know if it made it into the 3 Law books that dealt with evil spell lists in RMFRP.
3) Generally they are only for NPC's and or PC's being sucked into evil. Note some players can play this style and some cannot. If you want an example it would be player playing gradual descent into insanity and evil in a Call of Cthulhu game and the results of that.

There are other areas that have setting info from another GM and I would have to ask him to release more[size=78%] of it. If I can remember all of it correctly.[/size]

Is that what you were looking for?
MDC

[thrud]

That's exactly what I was looking for.
RAW IMHO is way to narrow-minded,  and I completely agree with everything said above.

P.S. The descent into evil can be really fun to play, but it's not for everyone, that's for sure.
Personally I love playing characters that balance right on the edge and constantly feel the tug-of-war.

[markc]

thurd,


I agree it can be a corner stone of many settings and games.
Also as you said it can be very age dependent, if you are running a game for 10-15 year old's you generally do things differently then if you group is 35+ and are horror addicted.


MDC

[jdale]

I would generally only use them for enemy NPCs, with the presumption that they are getting the power from specific entities, in exchange for service. That said, they could replace base lists for any profession of a suitable realm.

You could use them to represent a PC being tempted down a dark path, but to do that justice there need to be real and meaningful ramifications of going down that path. You can also run a game where all the PCs are explicitly evil, that's not my cup of tea though. If you do that, people who are not evil and understand what the magic is should be appalled and respond appropriately.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Are far as I understand it and how I play it, the so-called "evil" spell lists are extensions of base spell lists. As only the pure professions may choose other spell lists to complement theirs (as they, in fact, have ten base spell lists but only six are "common" spell lists to the whole profession), only they may "freely" add the "evil" spell lists to their repertory.
For other professions, I treat such spells as "base" spell lists not of the same profession.

[Spectre771]

An ingredient to "Evil" is also the actions and intent of the player.  I've had spell users play the "bad guy" without access to the evil spell lists.  I understand that the topic of the thread is the evil lists themselves, but I've had players use those evil lists for "good" to help the party and I had a healer who liked to kill people.  His twisted interpretation of "healing" was that he helped end the suffering and pain and helped his victims find rest. i.e.: Permanent rest.  It was a fun mini-campaign for the party to find the murderer as it was the NPC healer.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

I put quote around "evil" indeed because I fail to see how, for instance, mind controlling someone would be whilst killing him with a fireball wouldn't! So, yeah, to me they are foremost "base list extensions for pure spell users".

[thrud]

Interesting points. I think it says somewhere they can be taken in lieu of the regular base lists for magicians, clerics, and mentalist. But I suspect it's in there only because no one thought to change it. Thing often get included out of habit.
The RM motto is everyone can learn anything.
However,  I also think it's important to make a difference in game.
If you worship a dark God, it's going to cost you one way or another. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
It might not be visible in DP, but it can make a huge difference ingame

[jdale]

RMSS Spell Law says:

Option 1: An evil spell user only gets the six evil lists as automatic base lists; but he is allowed to choose five additional base lists from that realm’s open lists, that realm’s closed lists, and the base lists of the corresponding profession of that realm (e.g., Magician, Cleric, or Mentalist lists).

Option 2: An evil spell user only gets the six evil lists as automatic base lists; but he is allowed to choose five additional base lists from the base lists of one other pure spell user profession of that realm. Such evil spell users could be Evil Illusionists, Evil Animists, Evil Seers, etc.

Personally I would handle it the other way around. You start with a regular profession and then either take evil lists as your additional base lists or replace your profession's base lists with evil lists. But at the least, there is the option to have them for the other pure professions besides magician, cleric, and mentalist.

Regarding using evil lists vs killing with regular lists, my assumption is that the evil lists are more powerful because you are drawing that power from an evil source that requires doing evil things. Yes, you can kill people with a fireball, but to learn that fireball you did not need to pact with demons and promise to pay them a tithe of the blood of innocents.

If you don't have any moral issues tied into those lists, in my opinion they shouldn't exist at all. The price is the balancing factor, and without the price they are not balanced.

[thrud]

Jdale> You're my hero, I've been looking for that exact section of text.
Gsh, lost a huge chunk of text.
Excellent questions. What is actually evil essence and evil mentalism?
Evil gods is a no-brainer...

Follow-up question, what about evil hybrids and evil semis...
They would need a bit more fleshing out rules wise.

[jdale]

What is magic? I mean, I don't know that there can be a canon answer to that. One possible answer would be that some entity (e.g. demon) is granting the character a tiny bit of itself (its nature, its spirit, its aura, etc) which becomes part of the character and grants them access to a bit of its power.

[markc]

IMHO, read descriptions of realms in various core/expansions books.
Also Terry Amthor might have some notes that he can provide for free from his Shadow World setting as well as what he and the others had in mind when they built RM.
(I do remember Terry mentioning some things in the past but I do not remember exactly what topic it was in, but you might want to search for what is magic or what are the realms on the ICE Forums.)


MDC

[rdanhenry]

This was one area that I thought RM had pretty much left the GM with almost no guidance, so I defined things a little more in RMU, though there still a lot of optional aspects, it does define how to handle Evil lists if allowed to Arms characters (as Closed lists) and an example method of dealing with Evil lists is given. The lists have been changed in their designation from the "Evil Cleric" style to an "Evil Channeling" style to avoid implications that only specific professions may fall to Evil.

They remain, however, primary tools to express monster powers and to buff big bads to stand better against the superior numbers of a player-character party.

[Spectre771]

I, and a couple of my GM friends, never liked the moniker "evil <insert name here>" because the spell didn't have to be used for evil.  When we introduced new players to the game system, we referred to those lists as "restricted" or "special knowledge" lists; a list that could only be learned if one were a member of a special group or someone who knew the spell list was able to pass it down, like another Necromancer or Maleficant.

Even if we were to allow the lists in RMU sessions, we would most likely refer to the lists in the same manner; very restricted, learnable only from another specialized person or group.  The general population in the gaming world would view the use of those lists as Dark Knowledge or Forbidden Knowledge just as a lot of things were back in the Dark Ages of our own real world history.  The Inquisition, the Crusades, Druids, Dark Ceremonies, etc.  More misunderstood and judged on fear and ignorance than actually Evil, with a capital "E."

I would like to see some type of label used in RMU if it's not too late to change the word "evil" to something else or keep the name "evil" and describe the lists as Dark, Forbidden, or very restricted knowledge.

It's exactly as OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol stated.  More members of my groups have used Greater Elemental Attacks for bad things, than the evil lists were used for actual evil.  Concussion Relief allowed the party to dish out more death and damage more efficiently then the Maleficant did with Bad Dreams.  More of my players used Illusion spells to get away with things they would rather not be caught doing.

I put quote around "evil" indeed because I fail to see how, for instance, mind controlling someone would be whilst killing him with a fireball wouldn't! So, yeah, to me they are foremost "base list extensions for pure spell users".

.

[jdale]

Even if we were to allow the lists in RMU sessions, we would most likely refer to the lists in the same manner; very restricted, learnable only from another specialized person or group.  The general population in the gaming world would view the use of those lists as Dark Knowledge or Forbidden Knowledge just as a lot of things were back in the Dark Ages of our own real world history.  The Inquisition, the Crusades, Druids, Dark Ceremonies, etc.  More misunderstood and judged on fear and ignorance than actually Evil, with a capital "E."

My current setting doesn't have demons or dark gods or undead. I'm actually using a few of the evil lists that way, including Mind Death, Mind Disease, and Mind Illusions. But I'm also adjusting the lists to balance them appropriately, e.g. the Mind Disease spells are not permanent and not treated as curses. They are not balanced if you just treat them as regular lists, and there's no reason why forbidden lists should be more powerful simply because they are forbidden -- whereas being more powerful because you are getting the direct support from pacting with supernatural beings is justifiable.

That said, I think in general fantasy benefits from the inclusion of real Good and Evil. There can be plenty of entities that occupy the gray middle ground, but the inclusion of something that is truly good and something that is truly evil adds some weight to choices. And the game mechanics should support the existence of Good and Evil rather than letting it always be a matter of public relations.

[Hurin]

BTW, can I just note that I much prefer to have the summoning of undead (lists like Necromancy) in the Evil Channeling user's portfolio, and the summoning of demons in the Evil Essence portfolio? This was one of the things I thought RMSS/FRP did better than RM2 (and I say this as an RM2 guy). Channeling seems to be more the magic of life and death, and thus a more natural fit for Necromancy. I thought this change would be carried through to RMU, but RMU seems to have gone back to the RM2 way of doing it.

[Thot]

In my current campaign, there is no "objective morality" in the spell lists. "Evil" spell lists are just spell lists that can be learned by the appropriate professions (Magician, Mentalist, Cleric) at the same cost as their base lists. I have a lich necromancer/evil cleric who is just a regular guys, basically. He doesn't use that magic all that often, though.

However, regular use of those "Evil" lists will make you mad, will make you start to see things, hear voices and feel extremely irritating emotions, resulting in all kinds of mental diseases. I have not modeled this with rules (as magic right now is merely an NPC activity in my campaign), though.