Author Topic: How long to.....  (Read 3836 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Aspire2Hope

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Rediscovering the Joys of MERP
How long to.....
« on: August 17, 2019, 04:36:50 AM »
I guess I have never really thought long and hard about this before, because in most situations it makes little difference to the play. However, I have one adventure in process in which the PC will need to pick locks and search rooms in a populated castle and also make some rendez-vous to avoid detection as a spy. Which has thrown up the question how to handle these activities in game time.

Locks are sorted there is enough evidence around to give a ball park figure of time needed and I dumped the technical info on a thread to do with that (1-90 mins). So I can scale the success based on time to pick a lock.

However, searching for secret doors and traps is a little different. Firstly, there isn't a lot of experience about this in the modern world because we don't need to do it. I know that the clear an area of mines can take days working in a systematic grid with prodding/dog/detector gear. I don't think adventurers ever come close to that kind of dedication although most players would say they do without realising the time needed to complete such a task. Secondly, there is a difference between the being cautious down a corridor and having a quick look and a 100% sure there is nothing there.

I'm thinking of giving a bonus against time spent to add to the roll for a 20x20 area being examined. So if the player says I'll search for 10 mins then given an average roll they should find it. Alternatively I might tell them how long they have been searching for until it is discovered and they need to decide when to fold or stick.

Anyone house ruled something I could use?

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,103
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2019, 11:08:39 AM »
Just to guess, in one round you could check a 5x5' area for exposed tripwires and other mechanisms that could be discovered by close visual inspection (but not touching). In one minute you could go over the entire surface and find anything that might be a button, lever, or moveable element, but that would be hurried and you might trigger it (i.e. you found a button by pressing it). It would take longer if there are a lot of features (e.g. a bookshelf covered in books and knickknacks), and even longer if you want to examine everything but put it back the same so no one could notice you were there. Say up to 5x and 10x.

Double the time to decrease the maneuver difficulty by two, halve the time to increase the maneuver difficulty by two.

System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline intothatdarkness

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,879
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2019, 09:38:29 AM »
Espionage games are a good source for things like this, since those kind of searches are often covered there. It's also going to be influenced by the experience of the searcher (skill bonuses) because they know what to look for. The old Top Secret rules specified at least a minute per system (lock or trap) to disarm, and those were pretty basic rules.
Darn that salt pork!

Offline Majyk

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 477
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2019, 07:46:53 PM »
To spice things up, do what we have done since RM2 and have the GM roll a secret d10/2 for number of rounds it’ll take to pick.
For RMU, just multiply the result by 5AP to convert it into Action Points.

The ability to “rake” a lock can have it opened with 10 seconds IRL, but admittedly it is a bit luck based(besides pressure/angle/skill).

You can do this with a bunch of skills that take a bit of concentration or time and it adds a TONNE of suspense during the exact scene you quoted above...will that Rogue get his party through the locked door in time???
Super memorable stories with this mechanic added in!

Offline Aspire2Hope

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Rediscovering the Joys of MERP
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2019, 06:43:38 AM »
Espionage games are a good source for things like this, since those kind of searches are often covered there. It's also going to be influenced by the experience of the searcher (skill bonuses) because they know what to look for. The old Top Secret rules specified at least a minute per system (lock or trap) to disarm, and those were pretty basic rules.

Hmph that was no good. Administrator rules for TS say how long the search takes is up to you. If it is anything like my kids and the lost item left in the middle of the floor that could be hours :).

Offline Aspire2Hope

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Rediscovering the Joys of MERP
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2019, 07:16:05 AM »
I have done some work on locks - see thread on that subject. The MM table has provided a good way of handling the increase in time and avoids multiple rolls from the SM table. It should be a good way of handling the search times as well, once I can find some sort of time taken for different conditions.

Offline intothatdarkness

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,879
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2019, 08:27:31 PM »
Espionage games are a good source for things like this, since those kind of searches are often covered there. It's also going to be influenced by the experience of the searcher (skill bonuses) because they know what to look for. The old Top Secret rules specified at least a minute per system (lock or trap) to disarm, and those were pretty basic rules.

Hmph that was no good. Administrator rules for TS say how long the search takes is up to you. If it is anything like my kids and the lost item left in the middle of the floor that could be hours :).
You also only get one chance to find said trap or system. You don't find it that first time, it doesn't exist until you set it off. Come up with your own times, based on a fixed area and modified by the complexity of what they're looking for. And unless it's magically powered or locked, the kind of stuff you run into in most fantasy games is going to be far less sophisticated than what you see now.
Darn that salt pork!

Offline Aspire2Hope

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Rediscovering the Joys of MERP
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2019, 02:26:23 PM »
Traps are always difficult to manage in play. Players always want to be on the look-out for traps but never seem to think about how long it takes to find them and then complain when they get caught out by them. I always give a secret static manoeuvre roll based on perception skill (+trap lore skill ranks) on the assumption they will look for the telltale signs but don't spend 4 hours staring at a section of dungeon corridor. Can you imagine the complaints about running out of food within 200ft of the entrance ;D

I have thought that searching a room for an obvious item such as the shoe my daughter can't find but is there in the middle of the floor will be a  less than 10sec activity for an average person.

Offline gog

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 108
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2019, 05:09:54 AM »
You might want to have a look at Section 6.2 (pages 48-51) in Castles & Ruins which has guidance on trap building, but also how they are detected.

Offline Aspire2Hope

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Rediscovering the Joys of MERP
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2019, 11:35:26 AM »
You might want to have a look at Section 6.2 (pages 48-51) in Castles & Ruins which has guidance on trap building, but also how they are detected.
Thanks, Gog. Already read that and it gives a difficulty not a time. Also, remember the idea is to give a generic time to search for anything in a room. If I am looking for a trap I might still find other interesting hidden items and likewise for a secret door or hidden item.

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,615
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2019, 08:44:34 PM »
We tend not to worry TOO much about how long some actions can take as being as realistic as possible can sometimes destroy the fun of the game.
Just as a single example, let's see you want to make the party pick a lock before something specific happens within an active combat. Considering how long it would realistically take to pick your average lock and the length of rounds that's pretty much a no-go.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Aspire2Hope

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Rediscovering the Joys of MERP
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2019, 04:02:39 AM »
We tend not to worry TOO much about how long some actions can take as being as realistic as possible can sometimes destroy the fun of the game.
Just as a single example, let's see you want to make the party pick a lock before something specific happens within an active combat. Considering how long it would realistically take to pick your average lock and the length of rounds that's pretty much a no-go.

Only if you do it on the fly. If you just ask how long do you plan to spend then as a GM I now have the awareness of if there is an encounter looming. A quick roll by the player to determine time and a quick rough and dirty mental calculation will leave the game absolutely flying compared to being bogged down in multiple rolls for picking a lock that can't be picked.

Offline gog

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 108
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2019, 09:48:59 AM »
School of Hard Knocks suggests under the Awareness Skills that it takes 1 round for every 10'x10' to be examined to find a small object (p15), then it becomes a question of the difficulty and the factors effecting it.

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,615
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2019, 10:14:34 AM »
We tend not to worry TOO much about how long some actions can take as being as realistic as possible can sometimes destroy the fun of the game.
Just as a single example, let's see you want to make the party pick a lock before something specific happens within an active combat. Considering how long it would realistically take to pick your average lock and the length of rounds that's pretty much a no-go.

Only if you do it on the fly. If you just ask how long do you plan to spend then as a GM I now have the awareness of if there is an encounter looming. A quick roll by the player to determine time and a quick rough and dirty mental calculation will leave the game absolutely flying compared to being bogged down in multiple rolls for picking a lock that can't be picked.

I'm talking about the length of time it would take to, realistically, pick a lock. If it took someone a minute that's 10 rounds in RMSS. If there's a combat going on around that person it's not exactly fun for the one doing the picking.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Aspire2Hope

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Rediscovering the Joys of MERP
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2019, 01:56:25 AM »
Well, Corey, you don't have to spend your time picking the lock but if you are the locksmith of the party and the door needs to be open for your party to escape, then it is either up to the rest of the party to protect you or you will need to join in the defence and clear out before settling down to opening the lock. Jeopardy - "Will we make it in time?": the best part of Roleplaying. Don't forget you still have a chance of opening a lock much quicker than the standard and if I was inclined to make a dedicated table I'd have a couple of those instant success moments included but I'd just throw that in as a GM for a good roll (66/100)

Offline Aspire2Hope

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Rediscovering the Joys of MERP
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2019, 02:06:30 AM »
School of Hard Knocks suggests under the Awareness Skills that it takes 1 round for every 10'x10' to be examined to find a small object (p15), then it becomes a question of the difficulty and the factors effecting ( affect) it.
I think that's the tricky bit - a visual scan of the room for one round with no roll should reveal all the obvious. An easy level would reveal details not immediately obvious eg contents of a pile of clothes. Some things though you need more than visual clues. It took me 5 mins to find a missing piece of paper in a pile of documents the other day that involved looking through the and handling the objects. What if there was a trap under them? Would I visually see the trigger or part of the mechanism? How about if I felt under the table? Maybe for looking only it would take me a good 5 mins to spot it but using my hand about a minute. 

So you can see I'm trying to generate a set of mechanics to guide decisions about how long it takes to find anything. Of course, you can stare at your 10x10 bit of corridor to the cows come home but you still won't spot the trap until you feel that false stone under your foot :)

Offline Cory Magel

  • Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,615
  • OIC Points +5/-5
  • Fun > Balance > Realism
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2019, 02:26:05 AM »
Quote
but if you are the locksmith of the party and the door needs to be open for your party to escape, then it is either up to the rest of the party to protect you or you will need to join in the defence and clear out before settling down to opening the lock
Exactly the kind of suspense we are sometimes going for, but if the point is to pick the lock before getting overwhelmed (i.e. the picker is picking the lock while the rest the party is holding off attackers) then I'm not going to make the player sit on his ass for ten rounds while rest the party defends his character. Hence the entire point I made earlier... sometimes actions aren't in line with how slowly time goes by while in a combat. Outside combat it's really not an issue. It's simply one of those mechanics where fun comes before realism. Keep in mind picking a lock is simply one of many possible scenarios.
- Cory Magel

Game design priority: Fun > Balance > Realism (greater than > less than).
(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

"The only thing I know about adults is that they are obsolete children." - Dr Seuss

Offline Aspire2Hope

  • Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 109
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Rediscovering the Joys of MERP
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2019, 02:43:47 AM »
I think we are at cross purposes, Corey.  I'm not telling the player it will take 10 mins to pick. They make their lock pick roll without knowing the difficulty. Out of combat, I will ask "How long are you prepared to spend?" and in combat "Round x you are still working on the lock." The character chooses whether to spend their time working on the lock or fighting for their life. The rest of the party decide if protecting the locksmith or scarpering is the better option based on the changing situation.  That is why I think that to assign lock difficulty time is better for the game than the current SM where the player automatically knows if it has been picked, gets another roll or fails. Yes, they will have a sense of how well they are working from their roll and skill but never really be sure that this lock will open quickly or slowly. Of course, you could always kick the door down :)

Offline Majyk

  • Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 477
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2019, 11:29:27 AM »
I was always one to add random time to skill checks as I never liked someone knowing *exactly* when something will complete.

Experience and Master level training will help narrow the window down, of course, but sometimes folks have a bad day thinking about every other thing besides their work.

To help add suspense, add a d10/2 to add a number of rounds to how long something will take.
Add a d10 if someone has no skill at all, and reduce the divisible number as someone gets more skill ranks:
10+ = /3
20+ = /5

If you like using other dice to add rounds of time taken for skill checks besides d10s(in RM?!) you can use d20s on down to d4s depending upon difficulty, too.

Offline Peter R

  • Navigator
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,850
  • OIC Points +480/-480
    • Rolemaster Blog
Re: How long to.....
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2019, 02:24:00 AM »
RM uses all the polyhedral dice, just look at the number encountered in Creatures and Treasures.
Rolemasterblog http://www.rolemasterblog.com
Twitter https://twitter.com/RolemasterBlog
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/rolemasterblog/

Spectre771 A couple of weeks ago, I disemboweled one of my PCs with a...