Topic: Do you let people 'buy' ranks in things by reading books in your game?

[Colin-ICE]

I was thinking the other day about money in RPGs. If your PC uses a weapon or armor, you can spend your money on buying better or enchanted weapons and armor with various bonuses. However, there are a lot more things I think you could do with your gold rather than just amassing wealth for the hell of it.

I recently played a character with a ravenous thirst for knowledge who would spend his gold on buying rare and exotic books and spend his spare time reading them. What if this reading had resulted in bonuses? Would it unbalance things too much? Does anybody already do this in their game?

Let me know your thoughts.

[Spectre771]

I was thinking the other day about money in RPGs. If your PC uses a weapon or armor, you can spend your money on buying better or enchanted weapons and armor with various bonuses. However, there are a lot more things I think you could do with your gold rather than just amassing wealth for the hell of it.

I recently played a character with a ravenous thirst for knowledge who would spend his gold on buying rare and exotic books and spend his spare time reading them. What if this reading had resulted in bonuses? Would it unbalance things too much? Does anybody already do this in their game?

Let me know your thoughts.

We have one GM (Pure D&D fellow) who allowed the PCs to purchase land, build and run a business, and to benefit from it.  We had a steady income of gold, we had reputation that allowed the PCs to gain more info from the underworld, or favors with political higher ups.  It would seem like it's overpowering, but there were plenty of balances and he really maintained the bookkeeping on it.  Far more than any DM/GM would ever put into micro-managing downtime.  It was more non-tangible rewards than it was a skill stat boosts or new skills.  Better information from the underworld isn't the same as +5 ranks in Streetwise, but it certainly had its value in gameplay.

The system was so clever and creative and so well thought out that it added an entirely new depth to the system.  The players, not the PCs, felt invested in the world and felt as if we (the human beings) were actually involved in running the businesses and impacting town politics and we were sculpting the gaming world. 

But D&D is a very different creature from RM.  The extra investment in the D&D system was amazing.  Given the way RM handles skills and ranks, I would be hard pressed to find a way to balance rewards in terms of skill ranks.  More gold should not equal more skill ranks, but obtaining a rare book could impart a +5, +10 bonus to an existing Lore.  A magical book could impart +1 to +5 ranks in a Lore or act as a bonus when learning a spell list.  I would send the players on quests to obtain those books.  You could work it out that the PC spends that wealth on learning the secret location of said book and the party quests for it.  That would essentially equate to the PC buying the exotic book.  At least, he's buying the location or clues to the book, but he still has to work to get it.

It really depends on the amount of bonus the PC receives and how frequently he can get his hands on the books.  It's all about balance.  What trade-offs do the other players get if they spend their gold?

[Majyk]

I’d do the same, like above.

Certain books, gear, or materials(Medic bag) would rank as high as weapons(up to +25) and were never overbalancing because the bonii were always applied to Lore, or Secondary skills with no real worth besides them depleting Dev Points normally spent on Primary skills by a PC.

They would be treasured like crazy despite them not having much effect, only helping characters know more about how to pick that lock, identify a herb, or patch up a friend without magic(which all GMs want for their PCs to get through challenges they’ll face and have to bypass anyway.
Always a good idea to open treasure up to being more than just weapons and armour!

For your idea, I do that with Spell Lists(rare Arcane or Closed lists).

[Hurin]

RM has never really modelled book learnin' all that well, but actually I think that is partly because we often waive its requirements in the interest of streamlined gameplay. The only place i can think that we still do sometimes model it is with spell lists: you have to actually find the list or have teachers teach it to you before you can learn it. We probably should do the same with certain types of Lore such as History: unless you are actually in India, you are unlikely to be able to learn much about the Mughal Empire, unless you have books or a teacher. So we probably could be stricter with those sorts of things, but tend not to be in the interests of streamlined gameplay.

[intothatdarkness]

I usually required some kind of investment (books or lessons with people who'd been to the region) for PCs to learn Lore skills that were out of their normal area. The streamlining thing was also one of the reasons I never cared for training packages: too many groups skip the training time totally and just award the ranks.

We never totally modeled the D&D realm stuff, but as PCs gained levels and reputation I did give them opportunities to buy property or businesses and actually run them. One character bought a tavern and was faced with running it (including security and ale orders), while another ended up having to buy a stable to house her collection of horses. Of course this tends to show up more in non-fantasy stuff (ship upkeep for pirates, running a ranch for Western games, and so on), and since I run those with some regularity bringing those concepts into RM fantasy stuff was pretty easy.

We did have some specific treasures that provided skill bonuses (a +10 songbook for bards was one example, along with a marked deck of cards providing +15 for Gambling when used, but with a concurrent risk of being detected), but not many honestly. I do like the idea of adding books that provide bonuses.

[jdale]

I've toyed with using these rules for books:

Using Books:
   1. The quality of a book is rated as a skill bonus, e.g. +5 or +15. Note that quality is not dependent on length. A short scroll may present more useful information in a more useful format than a long and rambling journal.
   2. Reading a book: within one month of reading a book, the character may call upon the book for a bonus to applicable skills until three successes have been achieved. This represents knowledge picked up during a quick read of the text. (If the skill roll fails, the book had no relevant information, so the opportunity is not expended.) The player should justify how the book's topic is applicable to the matter at hand. (Or the book may be defined as being about a given skill.) Reading a book takes 1 hour per 30 pages. (This is slower than readers of modern books; assume that your typical text is harder to read because it is likely hand-written, and non-fiction is slower to plow through than fiction.)
   3. Studying a book: a character may make an extended study of the book, cross-referencing it against their other sources of knowledge, in order to develop a skill. A given book may be used to develop 1 rank per +5 bonus in a skill applicable to its subject matter. Studying a book takes 1 hour per 10 pages.
   4. Referencing a book: if a character has a library of books applicable to their research, and can take time to consult them, these grant a bonus to lore rolls. This takes one hour per five books, and the bonus is +1 for every +5 bonus of every book used. This bonus is never used up.

I think this makes them worthwhile but not too potent, unless you want to haul around a huge library which has its own issues. It also creates a new and interesting class of treasure.

There are some example books here: http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2012/dec/tomesofpowerlapidaries.html

There's a nice random book generator included with Inspiration Pad Pro, that comes up with titles, authors, page length, appearance, and quality, e.g.
Obirn, A Concise Biography, by Telendiel
180 Pages. a well bound book, with an illustrated wooden cover. The title of the book is plainly marked on the cover. The paper pages of the book itself are bound by a metal latch. The penmanship is poor, but pen strokes clear. The book covers it's subject well, but could be better
 
I customized it for my setting and also added language etc. I recently had the players gain the favor of a noble with a personal library, I gave them a list of 24 books (mostly random but I picked the ones that were most appropriate for his interests) and told them they had time to read one before they move on. A nice short term reward.

[Grinnen Baeritt]

This is something I've toyed with in the past and in addition to those methods Jdales mentioned also given the books an "research XP value" which, if the player spends the time to read them earns the player that base value of xp.... I'd then allow immediate DP expenditure (pre-advancement) in a "book subject related skill", that reduces the DP earned when the character finally reaches the next level. It's basically "burning" DP for the next level, but getting an immediate permanent skill increase after which the book provides no further bonuses.

Let's say a character normally receives 60 DP for a levels advancement.. work out how much a character needs to earn to gain a single DP. If that amount is 500xp = 1 DP, and the book's research value is 2000 xp, then the character will receive 2000xp and the ability to spend 4DP immediately on a "book related skill".

Running in tandem with this is the ability to comprehend and critique the work... and for this the character may expand their existing knowledge by making a skill check using the same skill as presented in the book.... or by using the Research skill. This obviously would be set at an appropriate difficulty and thus after making a Static Manuver improve the XP yield from reading the book.

 

[Cory Magel]

Generally we have no requirements for gaining ranks in skills, but we're a fairly hack-and-slash group.

I think the most restrictive I'd get is you can develop skills you already know, but if you want to learn something new that would realistically require transferred knowledge you either need to find a teacher (let's say an Arms User that normally uses a sword learning Martial Arts for the first time) or a book of some kind (a new spell list for example).

[Spectre771]

Generally we have no requirements for gaining ranks in skills, but we're a fairly hack-and-slash group.

Ditto.

There are already so many complexities to rolling up a new PC, and even more for a mage-type, that I let any PC get any skill they like.  The difficulty and sacrifice is already inherent in the DP cost.  This includes learning a brand new skill.  I don't micromanage the down time for the PCs, some of my GMs do, it's just their style and they enjoy it.  If the PCs want to pick up a new skill, I let the players assume, and I also assume, they spent some time in town researching or doing their own things.  Sort of like shore leave for sailors in a port.  Their time is their own, they pursue their interests and once they level up they get, at most, 2 ranks.  (Very rarely 3 ranks)  That's hardly earthshattering or balance-tipping. 

Even for a level 6 PC learning Martial Arts without the aid of an instructor... +10 in Rank 1 Sweeps and throws isn't going to do much against the baddies they face.  Not having an instructor to formally teach them reflects in the total OB.  Having been an instructor for a few decades, I can tell you that it's not so much the instructor that teaches the art, it's the student who practices it that matters.   The students who practiced on their own, outside of class, in their free time, in their room, in the back yard are the ones who excelled.  The ones who only showed up to class and went through the motions didn't do as well.

Corey, I'm not putting down your method at all.  Your example is just a great example and I love talking about Martial Arts.   

[Cory Magel]

Even for a level 6 PC learning Martial Arts without the aid of an instructor... +10 in Rank 1 Sweeps and throws isn't going to do much against the baddies they face.  Not having an instructor to formally teach them reflects in the total OB.  Having been an instructor for a few decades, I can tell you that it's not so much the instructor that teaches the art, it's the student who practices it that matters.   The students who practiced on their own, outside of class, in their free time, in their room, in the back yard are the ones who excelled.  The ones who only showed up to class and went through the motions didn't do as well.

Corey, I'm not putting down your method at all.  Your example is just a great example and I love talking about Martial Arts.   

Actually that sounds a bit like what I'd do if I was going to be at all restrictive.  You would never learn a Martial Art by purely self teaching (Rank 1).  You'd at least do something like watch videos (or read an instruction manual if we're talking a fantasy world if not find a teacher for the initial instruction.  From there you could practice on your own (i.e. you already have a rank or ranks).

[jdale]

That's what we do. For a new skill you need some instruction (teacher, book, other PC who knows the skill, etc). Beyond that you can study on your own. Except for spell lists and languages which require some new instruction/information for every rank. For spell lists, I don't require them to interact with someone (or a book) that covers the same exact spell list, just a list on the same theme, so for example I think you can gain enough insight from a similar spell list in a different realm. This depends on how you see magic working, though.

[GamemasterAlf]

I have training requirements for my characters to go up levels
The main skills are usually trained in actual adventure
Outside of that is practice and of course study and books can be involved there
Books in my world are sometimes the basis for learning a new skill when there is no one to train you on it. And not neccesarily just Lore 
That primer on lock picking can come in handy

I still normally require a Dev Point cost to learn skills

although I have special books can give you a level from reading them or perhaps cut down that DP cost (quality of the writer magical etc)

I try to limit the books that can do this though.

Bonuses from physical or magical properties are one thing
Bonuses from finding books penned by master swordsmen who can explain their training techniques that well in words should be rare