Topic: figuring the systems out and end up confused and frustated newbie issues.

[area51games]

PLEASE EXCUSE my Grammar dyslexic to the extreme and if I do not make this declaimer people do not get over my writing.   
so I started getting into Rolemaster  with HARP, earler in the eights I tried your game and was not smart enough to figure it out. and my friend who tried it fot burned out in character creation because I DID NOT understand the game, now many years later , I really am trying to learn the rolemaster system  but I keep running into classic., rm2. rmfrp and SO i GOT A LITTLE OF EACH BECAUSE I get so excited that I found your a book that I do not notice witch system its for. this is one of my biggest issues of the game , it as bad as Dungeons and Dragon verse Advance DnD AND ADV DND 2.  BUT I KEEP TRYING because this is a special game I like its many levels of details and I teach and bring people kicking and screaming into this game. now ERA HOW DO i FIND out witch mod is for witch system . its not real clear to me. could some one please write more detailed what this mod had and what system its for! it would help us slow types.  also in my humble opinion I think its time to universal central rule system that is compatible with space,modern and fantasy , and make core books then bring in the options in companion books. character law , spell law and arms law!  then every thing else is extra ! Please and second you should not need a damn computer to make a character.  put your heads together and readdress the lay out. a lot of what you have can be condensed and simplified !  thanks a lot believe it or not I am a big fan and thanks to madness comics and games am at the store every week to buy another book till I have all sets space , modern firearms, modern, FANTASY AND STANDARD AND CLASSIC! LOVE YOU ALL HOPE TO SEE if any response. oh and why the catagory and a skill rank? when would I use the catagory if the skill is specific ?

so one of the thing you can do with the laws systems is use brp chracter creations system for Coc, but add levels then uttilze talents law and school of hard knocks and use the rules as is.

[Hurin]

The category/skill rank issue is an issue with RMSS/FRP, not with RM2 or Classic, just so you know.

There is a new edition of Rolemaster coming out (nicknamed RMU for Rolemaster Unified) that is designed to address many of your concerns. It solves some of the complexities of the older editions. You can download the beta files for this edition on these forums (look for RMU).

[ob1knorrb]

If you are having trouble figuring out which books belong with which system, my website lists all the products according to which system they belong to:
http://www.icewebring.com/ice-products/

There are a few other articles on the site that might be helpful too.

http://www.icewebring.com/what-is-rolemaster/


http://www.icewebring.com/rmss-vs-rmfrp/

[Spectre771]

There are (arguably) four versions of Rolemaster so far, with RMU in the works.

(RM)       Rolemaster
(RM2)     Rolemaster 2nd ed.
(RMSS)   Rolemaster Standard System
(RMFRP)  Rolemaster Fantasy Roleplaying

There is also RM Classic (which is supposed to be very similar to RM2) and there is RM Express. I've never seen it in person or played it so I can't comment on RMX.

There are two options that could work. 

1) Choose one of the four versions above to focus on and the members here can help  you out with a lot more detail and in streamlining things such as PC creation.  For example, I am firmly entrenched in RM2.  I have been playing since my college days and I have all but one of the books (War Law).  I have streamlined PC creation, changed up the character sheet, and sorted the professions, skills, magic to help players get up and running pretty quickly.  I can roll out a level 5 PC in about 20 minutes.  If you choose RM2, definitely get a hold of Rolemaster Companion II.  It is the "bible" for RM2 and helps streamline a lot of PC creation essentials.

2) Jump into the RMU boards in the forum here and read up on the developments coming up.  The community is really active in the development and testing of the content as it's released.  You'll get a jump on what will be coming out all the while learning the system so it won't be such a shock when it's released.  A lot has been simplified and reworked to address a lot of the concerns you've pointed out.

If you are having trouble figuring out which books belong with which system, my website lists all the products according to which system they belong to:
http://www.icewebring.com/ice-products/

This is a fantastic link!  Thank you ob1knorrb.  Click one of the main categories on the left side of the screen and you'll see which books are associated with each version of RM.

[Turambar]

RMSS and RMFRP are the same system...it is just packaged different. I used a mix of the books in practice...for example, it is easier to pass the RMFRP spell law books around the table (one for each realm) than the RMSS spell law (all in one), which is a better reference for the GM as he has all realms at his fingertips.

Back in the day, I had a buddy that meticulously poured through RM2 when it came out to find the differences with RM1. I think he found something like four or six differences (mostly clarifications), only one being a real change...and I can't remember what it was  .

I haven't perused the RMC/RMX stuff much, but my assumption is that it is pretty much compatible with RM/RM2.

So, in practice there are really only two versions out currently, and one in the works.

IMO,
Jason

[Spectre771]

RM Classic is different enough to not be fully workable into a pure RM2 world.  I had a party of 8 players and one was a rules-lawyer.  He got a hold of a couple of RMC books, re-worked his character without telling me and started to do all these things that made no sense to me and raised a few complaints from the other players.  He showed me the different things he used in PC creation and it threw the balance of the game off.  He had unfair advantages over the other players because of the books he bought.  It felt like RMC was closer to a bridge for RMSS.

I would need a lot more time and few more books to consider RMC.  I simply don't have enough experience with it compared to RM2 and I know it messed things up when one player tried to use it.  For the OP, I would say definitely stick to one system without trying to mix/match versions.

[Turambar]

Thanks Spectre...so, 2 1/2 versions   

We refer to that as being 'John Henry' in our gaming group...after one of the members back in ourJHS/HS years (the group must be nearing 37/38 years old now...still have four originals  ). Surprise new rules in the middle of a game...frustrating.

Jason

[Nightblade42]

Isn't that a situation where the GM should simply say: "Sorry, those aren't the rules we play by.  You'll have to change your character to fit the accepted house rules of my game."  If its an RM2 vs RMC issue, then you say "We're using the RM2 rules." if he complains.

Nightblade ->--

[Spectre771]

Ha!  771 posts!!  Sweet.

Isn't that a situation where the GM should simply say: "Sorry, those aren't the rules we play by.  You'll have to change your character to fit the accepted house rules of my game."  If its an RM2 vs RMC issue, then you say "We're using the RM2 rules." if he complains.

Nightblade ->--

It completely threw me off my game for a minute and I had to explain to him that it wasn't fair.  This was after I had offered to help him roll a PC and he declined.  Every one had pre-made PCs and rather than just take the PC and learn the new system, he complained it wasn't the type of player he would make up.  Well... wth.  I offered to help him with a PC he said no, just give him a pre-made!  Argh!

He stopped having fun immediately and couldn't wait to pack up and leave that night.

Oh crap... 772 posts

[Majyk]

  Every one had pre-made PCs and rather than just take the PC and learn the new system, he complained it wasn't the type of player he would make up.  Well... wth.  I offered to help him with a PC he said no, just give him a pre-made!  Argh!

He stopped having fun immediately and couldn't wait to pack up and leave that night.

Good riddance to those types of players.

Suck it up, as it won’t be long having to use them and they can be swapped out with Player rolled characters soon enough.

Freakin’ wahhh. 

[Spectre771]

And that was exactly the point.  I was trying to introduce the game to newbies and to have it as simple as possible by using the pre-made PCs.  They were D&D only players, with maybe a splash of WoD.  None had even played RM prior to that session.  Right off the bat, he closed down and didn't even bother to learn the system.  He stopped showing up for the couple of weeks we played the campaign, then his schedule suddenly cleared up again.

To the original poster's point, it can be confusing to learn the system, especially with the different versions.  RMC happened to cause an issue with RM2 and because the sessions was 100% exactly the way he wanted it to be, he just refused to have fun at all.  Positive Mental Attitude is the key!

[Peter R]

The event that moved me from RM2 to RMC was when I introduced a new GM to Rolemaster. He obviously needed books and RMC was what was available to buy. I bought the books as well so we were working from the same rules.

I must admit I haven't looked back since making the change over.

[Nightblade42]

Ha!  771 posts!!  Sweet.

Isn't that a situation where the GM should simply say: "Sorry, those aren't the rules we play by.  You'll have to change your character to fit the accepted house rules of my game."  If its an RM2 vs RMC issue, then you say "We're using the RM2 rules." if he complains.

Nightblade ->--

It completely threw me off my game for a minute and I had to explain to him that it wasn't fair.  This was after I had offered to help him roll a PC and he declined.  Every one had pre-made PCs and rather than just take the PC and learn the new system, he complained it wasn't the type of player he would make up.  Well... wth.  I offered to help him with a PC he said no, just give him a pre-made!  Argh!

He stopped having fun immediately and couldn't wait to pack up and leave that night.

Oh crap... 772 posts

Sounds like your gaming group might be better off without him - which is sad to say.

Nightblade ->--

[Nightblade42]

To the original poster's point, it can be confusing to learn the system, especially with the different versions.  RMC happened to cause an issue with RM2 and because the sessions was 100% exactly the way he wanted it to be, he just refused to have fun at all.  Positive Mental Attitude is the key!

Hear hear!

I agree, pick one of the systems, learn it inside & out - then adapt it to your GM'ing style & the playing style of your players (as well as your game world).  Once you do that, if you want - check out what the other versions have to offer & see what you may want to incorporate into your game.

I still say, if you follow the RAW (without any of the options at the back of the books) from RM2's ChL&CaL; AL&CL and SL, you have a great FRPG that is easy to run & gives you all the basics players want.  I love RM2 & though I steal some stuff from RMSS/RMFRP, the bulk of the ruleset I use for my needs is RM2.  But I graduated to RM from a MERP background - I'm not sure how taking up RM (in any of its versions) would be for someone coming from other game systems.  I've learned other systems myself, but I started from a MERP/RM2 perspective.

As for RMC/RMX vs. RM2/MERP - I always understood that RMX was a scaled down version of RMC (like MERP was to RM2) & that RMC itself was an updated & compatible version of RM2.  I know there are some changes (mostly in the Combat Round structure), but I didn't realize those RMC vs. RM2 differences could cause a big issue.  Again, were these RMC optional rules or core rules that were the issue? I'd be interested to find out which rules impacted your game so much, Spectre.

Nightblade ->--

[Spectre771]

Nightblade, what I found was the training packages he was using with the RMC character. His stats all jumped-up out of proportion with the other stats of the group and he had far more DP to spend per level than the others had.  He had bundles of skills that he wouldn't have been able to purchase using the RM2 DP costs and purchase method.

I ran into the same issue when I ran my weekend campaign last fall.  I kept telling the two first-timers that I would help them roll up the PCs.  If... IF... they really wanted to buy any books, make sure they are RM2ed.  NOT RMC, RMFRP, RMSS.  Make sure RM2.  In fact I told them specifically to get RMC-II and Elemental Companion and forget anything else.  I sent text after text, e-mails reiterating this.  They insisted on trying it on their own and ended up doing so with the wrong books.  It got to the point where they texted me and asked which packages I was allowing.  I had no idea what they were talking about.  I asked which book and he said Hard Knocks.

I use the RAW as closely as possible for simplicity.  I do use the very simplified Initiative which is simply roll, and go down the line.  I don't do all the phases.  Combat bogs down as it is and having 7 phases to manage each time is too much.  A higher initiative can hold his action until later in the series if he'd like. 

I do allow every skill in every companion.  If they want to spread out their DP, they certainly can.  No one has ever taken Hygiene, Weapon Bugei, Stilt Walking, or Animal Husbandry, but it's there if they want it.

I am in the exact same boat you are in too. My very first exposure to gaming was RM2 with the greatest group of guys I ever gamed with.  We had fall on the floor laughing sessions and it was all RM2.  Since then, I've tried different systems and each has it merit, but RM2 is simply my favorite even after 30 years.  I love World of Darkness, I had a blast with GURPS Supers and Toons, I've played D&D and Pathfinder, but RM2 is my go-to for GM-ing as I know that system best.  I've run Vampire:tM as it's my next favorite game, but I'm no where near as fluent or comfortable running those sessions, and I've read those books cover to cover just for fun several times over.  I picked up V:tM when it was first released too.

[Peter R]

Nightblade, what I found was the training packages he was using with the RMC character. His stats all jumped-up out of proportion with the other stats of the group and he had far more DP to spend per level than the others had.  He had bundles of skills that he wouldn't have been able to purchase using the RM2 DP costs and purchase method.

That is interesting as there are no training packages in RMC.

I use the RAW as closely as possible for simplicity.  I do use the very simplified Initiative which is simply roll, and go down the line.  I don't do all the phases.  Combat bogs down as it is and having 7 phases to manage each time is too much.  A higher initiative can hold his action until later in the series if he'd like. 

I do allow every skill in every companion.  If they want to spread out their DP, they certainly can.  No one has ever taken Hygiene, Weapon Bugei, Stilt Walking, or Animal Husbandry, but it's there if they want it.

I am in the exact same boat you are in too. My very first exposure to gaming was RM2 with the greatest group of guys I ever gamed with.  We had fall on the floor laughing sessions and it was all RM2.  Since then, I've tried different systems and each has it merit, but RM2 is simply my favorite even after 30 years.  I love World of Darkness, I had a blast with GURPS Supers and Toons, I've played D&D and Pathfinder, but RM2 is my go-to for GM-ing as I know that system best.  I've run Vampire:tM as it's my next favorite game, but I'm no where near as fluent or comfortable running those sessions, and I've read those books cover to cover just for fun several times over.  I picked up V:tM when it was first released too.

The percentage based round is one of the best improvements in RMC over RM2 and one of the few that you can explicitly point to and say that is a change. Most of the changes are changes in wording here and there. Things were the optional rule from a companion was adopted as the core.

[Spectre771]

That is interesting as there are no training packages in RMC.

The most recent incident was RM-FRP and School of Hard Knocks.  The players bought the companion and it wasn't part of RM2.  That was probably the training packages incident.

I don't know what books the first player had a hold of from RMC, but he had a few.  He brought one book with him because his picture is in the urban dictionary for "Min Maxer."  He will use a microscope to find every loophole to make a PC and he did it to the point where the PC just not 'fair' to the other players using RM2 PCs.  He came to the second gaming session armed with this book to point out everything he should be allowed to do.  I tried to let it slide and just sucked it up for that session for the sake of having a good time.  The rest is history.  He stopped showing up because he couldn't use his OP character the way he modified it.   

[intothatdarkness]

And quite a bit of this thread points out one of the things I've always said about RM no matter which version you're using: an experienced (or at least well-versed) GM is critical to making it work. This is more true for RM than any other system I've ever played. GMs need to decide which rules they're using, and how they're using them, before play ever starts and then stick to them no matter what pops out of the woodwork.

[Hurin]

And quite a bit of this thread points out one of the things I've always said about RM no matter which version you're using: an experienced (or at least well-versed) GM is critical to making it work. This is more true for RM than any other system I've ever played.

I think you are spot on. Rolemaster has a steeper (or would it be flatter?) learning curve than most other systems, in the sense that the system is quite deep and there are many optional rules. But that depth and flexibility gradually becomes less of a barrier and more of an asset as the GM gains experience, and is able to tailor the game to his/her strengths and preferences.

[Peter R]

I think it is also significant that most of us are first time around GMs so we started with just the core rules and we added companions as they were released.

Someone coming to RM2 today would be faced with a bewildering array of core and optional rules to evaluate before they even get to play.

That makes RMU an even better opportunity to engage more new players as the system resets to something more compact.